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  1. #11
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I don't have an algorythem, but I was asked a question on breathing for my intermediate nursing exams...

    A person is taking normal breaths, and a person taking deep breaths are pushed into a swimming pool, which one can hold their breath longer? Discuss

    All to do with stress receptors and the higher centres of your brain, which may be why you are haivng difficulty with your algorythim, it's subconcious action...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I don't have an algorythem, but I was asked a question on breathing for my intermediate nursing exams...

    A person is taking normal breaths, and a person taking deep breaths are pushed into a swimming pool, which one can hold their breath longer? Discuss

    All to do with stress receptors and the higher centres of your brain, which may be why you are haivng difficulty with your algorythim, it's subconcious action...
    First, my guess is the person taking normal breaths since, assuming minimal intelligence, you wouldn't have put forth the question if it was deep breaths as this would be assumed by default from common intuition. In most fields, a teacher gets a reader interested by demonstrating cases where scientific discovery has trumped popular intuition. Garry Kasparov, for instance, never tires of saying there are more possible chess games than elementary particles of the universe. On the other hand, if the answer is deep breaths than that seems like a waste of time since most would assume that automatically. Therefore, no puzzle would be entailed and what would be the point of that? Thus, through logic alone my answer is normal breaths. Either that or you've wasted everyone's time.

    Secondly, your example provides no notion of what point the persons are at in their rhythm of breathing. Did they get pushed in just after exhaling? This might favor the one who takes normal breaths; meanwhile being pushed in just after inhaling might favor the person who takes deep breaths.

    Third, assuming that you brought this up precisely becaues it defies popular intuition that deep breaths conduce to being able to hold one's breath longer, then the puzzle remains: why is this the case? I am not a medical sciences student but my guess would be that it requires more energy to store the air from a deep breath than the benefits brought from the supply of oxygen it brings, and thus once gains are subtracted from losses the overall net benefit for the deep breather is comparatively less than the person who breaths normally.

    Fourth, who said there were any problems with my algorithm? I used this breathing pattern when I was on team Ontario and ranked one in Canada at my weight class when I used to box. This is not to say that one was the cause of the other, but it certainly conduced to overall fitness by any empirical measure.

    Fifth, I do not believe in the subconscious. So perhaps you can define it and say why it necessarily exists.

  3. #13
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I know I didn't provide an algorythem

    Actually it doens't matter when they were pushed - your subconsious would automatically draw in a "panic" style deep breath weather they ahd just taken a breath of exhailed they would still inhail (bit more)

    Medically the person takign bigger breaths prior to being pushed could hold their breath longer (given same lunch capacity etc).

    This is because they have already streached their intercostal muscles (ie warmed them up to take in more air when inhaling). When pushed both people exihbit and autonomic responce of sharp intake of maximum breath as part of the fight or flight responce (ie the body doens't know how big the danger is).

    It gets more compelx as you go through the various stages of cell reaction and limiting of oxygenation etc muscle responce etc etc...

  4. #14
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    How nice of you to introduce new information in the explanation. So you have not demonstrated anything new. You have not defied the popular conception that deeper breathing conduces to being able to hold longer breaths. You have put forth a highly specific case where regardless of breathing patterns people will take a "panic breath." So then the way you've set up the puzzle is misleading, since you fail to mention that once pushed both take in a "panic breath." So it is not in fact a case of who can breath longer under water, the deep breather or normal breather since now we know they each get an extra breath. Well, of course this will change the result of who if anyone can breath longer once under, but this was not something propounded in the question. And there seems to be no reason to make the assumption a priori that all humans will follow this rule. Is this necessarily the case as a person who tries to jump as high as the empire state building will fail is necessarily the case? I doubt it as it is certainly conceivable that a person could be pushed in but completely relaxed so as to not take in a "panic breath." Thus, does the panic breath apply to all or only some humans? Will the length of the panic breath change depending on the person's typical breathing patterns?

  5. #15
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    How nice of you to introduce new information in the explanation. So you have not demonstrated anything new. You have not defied the popular conception that deeper breathing conduces to being able to hold longer breaths. You have put forth a highly specific case where regardless of breathing patterns people will take a "panic breath." So then the way you've set up the puzzle is misleading, since you fail to mention that once pushed both take in a "panic breath." So it is not in fact a case of who can breath longer under water, the deep breather or normal breather since now we know they each get in extra breath. Well, of course this will change the result of who if anyone can breath longer once under, but this was not something propounded in the question.

    Nevertheless, for all it is worth one might contest this argument as well. Is one predisposed to a longer panic breath than the other by virtue of years of accummulated breathing patterns? In any case, does this apply to all humans or only some?
    It was a nursing test, I was suppose to know this stuff of the base:P

    I didn't set up any puzzle, I said my nursign school used it to test our knowledge, emergency breathing is not under our own control (for a reason)...

    It's a long time since I studied this stuff but basically the subcouncious is stimulated to take an emergency inhillation, the lungs having been streached can expand further durign that inhilation than the non expanded lungs, and there was a whole bunch of other stuff going on... I'd need to worth through all the systems at play... it needed to go through the whole gas exhange between cells.

  6. #16
    Your time is gonna come. Oom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Will the length of the panic breath change depending on the person's typical breathing patterns?
    Or would it simply change with the initial distance between the water and the falling subject?

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