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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ime, INTJs need time to digest these things. And yes, they become paranoid, unreasonable almost but you know what...they just need time to do this. Doesn't mean they're right in their actions, but it's understandable.

    I remember disappointing my INTJ last year...in a way that broke his trust. We've been together for a long time and he's incredibly tolerant and non-judgemental, but that particular thing just caused insecurity in him, which caused him to not act as his natural self (and he was justified in his reaction i have to admit). What I did was appologize profusely, and explain to him how I came to do this thing, and why to me it wasn't a red flag, but that I would definitely not repeat the same mistake in the future, as I could see that to him it was important, and that was enough for me. He was reasonable enough to see that I meant it, but his feelings and trust took longer to restore. He became more possessive and controlling for a while, and I let him, as I knew he needed it. At the same time, I knew that he was understanding and reasonable enough for this to be temporary. I focused all my attention on restoring 'us', made him feel safe and loved once more, reminded him of why we were together, or so I tried. It's still a sensitive spot today, but no longer an issue, we're back to the way we were. He knows that I love him and that I wouldn't intentionally hurt him. Knowing and feeling isn't the same though. Give him time to harmonize the two and show him that you're willing to discuss this, to work at it, that *he* matters to you, that this relationship is too important to you to let it go, and explain to him why you did what you did, and that you can in fact see his point of view, without getting defensive

    Good luck
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  2. #22
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megm87 View Post
    I tried to lie about it (panicking, made an absolutely stupid move) and then he proceeded to look through my text messages to discover the ones where I was telling my ENFP friend I would meet up to catch up. He proceeded to become more infuriated than I have ever seen him (he generally is very cool and does not lose his temper - this time he did even though it only lasted about 1 minute before he became his cool, distant self.) He then told me that he could never trust me and that we have to break up and that even though I told him nothing out of the ordinary happened that night he said that he must assume that I cheated on him.
    This was a really big mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anastar View Post
    DO NOT LIE! INTJ 's hate liars.
    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    To him you've broken his trust- Ni doms take forever to regain trust.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Time View Post
    He has lost his trust of you ... it is your fault. You should have known better than to hang out with some other friend and lie about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Be true. Tell the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    From my INTJ perspective: The WORST thing you can do to an INTJ is LIE to them. It's like assuming we're idiots. I personally lose complete respect for someone who lies to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    My first question is this: if it wasn't a big deal that you hung out with this ENFP friend, then why did you lie about it in the first place?
    Nothing will permanently damage your relationship with an INTJ like deceit. It may be true that you simply panicked, but even if you're innocent of everything else, that your first instinct was to lie is troubling. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it may be something he is never able to forgive or forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Time View Post
    It was I who said it was over. I say this based on the fact that this particular INTJ sounds exactly like me (word for word). Almost every single one of his actions sounds like what I would do in such a situation. Its sad, but true.
    Your INTJ reacted pretty much the way I would, too, at each step (emotionally, anyway). And like Mr.Time, I doubt your relationship can be repaired. You might patch it together for a little while if you really pull out all the stops, but I think there are too many things he'll never be able to get past.

    He probably feels like he doesn't mean as much to you as you did to him. Nothing you can say at this point is likely to change that, unless you can go back in time and not sleep with your friend, then prioritize your time with him over the holidays. The trust issue is at least as big. You lied about something hugely important to your relationship, something that had already been a source of conflict. You also tell him things and then don't do them.

    It doesn't really sound like you have seen things from his point of view at any time in the whole process. Frankly, it doesn't sound like you want an INTJ. He's an I, and you're trying to change that. If you've expressed this to him, I guarantee you he resents it.

    Quote Originally Posted by megm87 View Post
    If nothing else I would love to hear other people's takes on our relationship.
    My take on your relationship is that you should look for another one. I don't think INTJ is a good match for you. You seem to want someone more social than an I, and most INTJs will see you as careless about what you say/do, if not outright untrustworthy. Moving on would probably be best for both of you.

    If you're determined to try to work it out, patience will be key. It's going to take a lot of time -- and considerable effort on your part -- to get your relationship halfway healthy again. Amargith's advice is very good, if you're willing and able to undertake it. You have to play with the ball in his court right now: apologize and explain yourself logically -- become a T for a day. Go out of your way to spend time with him, even to the exclusion of others, and do (unusually) nice things for him. You have to show him that he's really special to you. And above all else, if you tell him you're going to do something, do it. Little trust issues will be huge for the foreseeable future.

  3. #23
    Junior Member megm87's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your replies, this is exactly what I needed. I am going to wing answering questions I remember first, then I'll go back and read through and directly answer ones I might have missed. The ENFP I hung out with was not the mutual friend I slept with, I stopped talking to him a long time ago even before my INTJ knew that we had slept together - and also reiterated that I would not have contact with him after he found out. You are right, I need to remember how little introverts need social time. I definitely want and introvert because I know that I could not be with another E, and I really do not mind (and in fact very much enjoy) staying in or just spending time with me and him. I just lost sight of just how little he needs people time compared to me (I knew it was less but had really forgotten just how much so), and I am so glad that you all have reminded me of that. I do want an INTJ (definitely not opposed to dating other types just love the unique connection that my boyfriend and I share), I think that it has just been hard for me to be with one that has been so down on himself and in such a frustrating point of life for so long now. I have alot of patience but I feel like sometimes I keep pouring more and more comfort out and that I'm getting drained sometimes maybe? I think again this is my fault because either way he needs to work through alot of these things on his own and I shouldn't burden myself with worrying about how it's all going to resolve itself when there's really not much I can do. He has been very good with dealing with all the stuff that has come his way as well. My ex was an ISTP and every time something went wrong it was the end of the world and he would take it out on me and seriously need me to pull him back up out of it-my INTJ has never done that and I know he never would.

    I also think that sometimes I still try to do things how I had to do them with my ex (we were together for 3 years and I probably needed more time between that relationship and this one), which brings me to answer why I think I lied. I did nothing to wrong my INTJ that night I caught up with my friend, he was already asleep when I got into town so obviously couldn't have told him before I met up with him but easily could have the next day. I had to develop some type of autonomy/guard around myself when I was with the ISTP and had to learn to constantly be on guard which led to me turning into a person that I hated-which is when I finally got out of the relationship. I was lying to him (out of fear of his reactions even over little things), leaving info out (which you all are right I do sincerely need to work on) and just totally resented him by the end of us being together. I swore I would never let another person turn me into that again. However, I feel like I have carried over some of those old habits, not the lying and resentment but the fear of the other person blowing up at me over anything and everything. It's so silly because I know that my INTJ would never react that way because he never has, but since we've been together I've had to seriously work on trusting that he won't be verbally abusive like my ex. In this situation with my old friend I just got more and more scared the longer I waited to tell him about it and then convinced myself he would just be mad no matter what and that it was better to just 'leave that information out.' So sad because even as I did it I knew it was wrong and would end up worse in the end.

    I also heartily agree with needing to done on my T cap for awhile, which he has taught me to do so well and I love him for it. Last night we talked for a couple hours and I used strictly reasoning and kept feelings out of it of why he could trust me and explained why I lied and apologized again and admitted it was a very stupid move. We are currently back together but I still fear that he won't ever be able to be the same with me again . I need to heed your advice Amargith and remember that he has every right to be distrustful for a little while and that it won't be an over night change.

    Oh one more thing I forgot to address, I drive to see him every weekend so the reason I spent time with my friends and family over xmas more is because my friends were flying in from far away places and I only get to see them maybe 2 times a year. I do wish I would have spent more time with him than I had, though or at least not told him that I would 'be able to see him so much' (this he expressed was more the mistake.)

    That's another thing, how do I convince him to want to come drive and see me? I tried asking if he would sometimes (he doesn't have a job or anything right now but I work M-F 8-5 so I can only come for a few days at a time) but he says that every time he has come it's been a bad experience (first time he came my INFJ roommate's boyfriend and her broke up and I had to console her for a couple hours one of the nights and the last time was when the whole ENFP friend lie thing went down :/).

  4. #24
    Junior Member megm87's Avatar
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    PS thanks for all of the hugs everyone!

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok well, he still needs to put in effort too. So this time tease him and promise him a weekend filled with fun
    He's male, he's INTJ...nothing like a weekend filled with some special treats and pleasure to unwind after a hard week
    And do make it worth his while, watching movies together, cuddling and physical touch (did I mention that they thrive on this shit? They're closet cuddle monsters!), focus on the two of you and tell him you can better pamper him at home, to lure him over.

    Keep things positive and fun, and although you can condone a little sulking and paranoid behavior...he does *not* own you or get to hold this against you to get emotionally blackmail you forever. However, let him be possessive and hold all your attention for a while, he's worth it and he needs it.

    Oh and one more thing...if you genuinly love each other, you also know each other through and through. That means that you're allowed to make a mistake, and he's allowed to be pissed over it. That also means that together, there's nothing you cannot solve or face. You're a team, you against the world. Trust in him. If he truly loves you, he desperately wants to trust you again. Rise to the occasion, don't doubt him, or yourself, but show him that he can depend on you, that you are very much aware of what he needs.Give him what he needs, and believe that he will restore the emotional bond that you so desperately miss right now. Trust me, he wants the same thing you do, and you kinda hold the key to his ability of closing that gap

    Edit: you're probably used to him being the emotional rock in the relationship. This time, it's his turn to be emo. Be his rock. Be emotionally dependable and stable. It's exhausting, but worth it
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  6. #26
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    my impression is that he's probably an sx/sp. the inner conflict about intensity is terrifying for sx/sp (injs), especially e5s who dont' trust their ability to handle their emotions in the moment. it's a constant push-pull, on-off, hot-cold. how can he give you all his intensity, focus, energy, when yours is so much more disparate, easy-going, whimsical, etc? when he feels so deliberate, when staying open is very difficult, threatening (to identity), makes him vulnerable, etc. bc the big difference is the past is an enormous beast that cannot be slayed for injs and for enps the past is immediately forgotten, bc the present is reminding you of all the future possibilities. injs skip the present entirely for most of their lives, the future is entirely based on the weighty, unceasing, eternal past. nietzsche (intj 5w4 sx/sp) invented the eternal recurrence. it makes your shoulders sag, and affirming it is the most difficult thing in the world.

    as for your situation, you could go to your friend's house and hang out. or you could imagine your boyfriend's interpretation of events and choose to not go. he is being extremely controlling. his emotions are becoming more important than yours (bc they are at a more dangerous elevation, currently). it is up to you to decide what is most important to you, and to show that you are trying to find him. this is the most important part. if you are trying to find him, and if you are allowing your findings to influence what you do (and not just give you enough information to avoid his current (and unfair) wrath), than you are trying to fix it. but the next step is that you need to communicate with him (as kalach pointed out). you need to show him solid perceptual images of what has been true, things that he is filtering out. i have this constant revisionist total fucking devastation of the past when i am in this kind of state. i forget all kinds of things that are true, that are true enough for me to calm down. i do not hear anyone, or see anyone, and YOU would become a mere abstraction. an idea. a representation of the past, of my own painful feelings, and most of all, my own fears. show him that you are not just an idea, that your past wasn't a lie, and that your feelings are real. he will not give his energies to you unless you show him that you are willing to invest in equal measure.

    the sx/sp tension is extremely counterphobic. dwelling on the worst to protect overdrawing, over-committing, being made too vulnerable, humiliated, etc. bc the sp is full of fears, a strong "worst case scenario" thinking pattern, awareness of potential problems, etc. it's currently what you're experiencing, and how it is kind of fucking up his life right now (which is true, and he SHOULD go out and be more social, and withdrawing to deal with this is not the only way and rarely the best way, especially without a creative outlet to help improve self-understanding). these are very difficult situations and he has to break this for himself and his own future. whether he is too difficult and not worth it is up to you. it could be a really negative thing for him, or it could be the kind of T CHECK heart and brain mentions. i've needed that T check a few times (to recognize the logical outcome of this behavior, this no one can win, no one's ever gonna win with me attitude), and that's a kind of motivation to transcend your emotions and see a greater truth, but damn, my emotions still resonate with the inj characters in each of these situations. a deeply romantic streak that feels violated, ashamed, discarded. you just want to fucking disappear... (but can find no escape and no solace)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by megm87 View Post
    I also think that sometimes I still try to do things how I had to do them with my ex (we were together for 3 years and I probably needed more time between that relationship and this one), which brings me to answer why I think I lied. I did nothing to wrong my INTJ that night I caught up with my friend, he was already asleep when I got into town so obviously couldn't have told him before I met up with him but easily could have the next day. I had to develop some type of autonomy/guard around myself when I was with the ISTP and had to learn to constantly be on guard which led to me turning into a person that I hated-which is when I finally got out of the relationship. I was lying to him (out of fear of his reactions even over little things), leaving info out (which you all are right I do sincerely need to work on) and just totally resented him by the end of us being together. I swore I would never let another person turn me into that again. However, I feel like I have carried over some of those old habits, not the lying and resentment but the fear of the other person blowing up at me over anything and everything. It's so silly because I know that my INTJ would never react that way because he never has, but since we've been together I've had to seriously work on trusting that he won't be verbally abusive like my ex. In this situation with my old friend I just got more and more scared the longer I waited to tell him about it and then convinced myself he would just be mad no matter what and that it was better to just 'leave that information out.' So sad because even as I did it I knew it was wrong and would end up worse in the end.
    Have you told him this?

  8. #28
    Junior Member megm87's Avatar
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    Yes, I have told him because it has come up before a few times. I have gotten much better since we first started dating-at first every time I missed his phone call I would freak out and expect him to get mad because that's how it was with my ex, I would even get out of the shower mid shower to answer which looking back is crazy how I could assume another person would be that way but I was just so conditioned. He is understanding about it but I know it still must be frustrating that he has to deal with that when he is not the one who put that innate but unnecessary fear in me. In fact, me telling him this last night is one of the things that I think might have helped him understand where I was coming from.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    I agree with Amargith that patience and understanding and reaffirmation is the way to go. But it's a way to go out of LOVE. Not out of a screwed up sense of guilt and blame.

    He is accusing you of something you have not done and he ignores new information. (How would INTJs react to false accusations? And further: how would INTJs react to not being heard or believed when they explain how the accusation is false? Seriously, how long would you repeat loving apologies and explanations that are ignored before you'd do the doorslam?)

    So I tend to disagree with the rather draconic judgmental INTJ-remarks above, and want to say that HE makes some mistakes:

    - He, not you, is making the false assumption that you've cheated on him which isn't true. An INTJ doesn't like to be mistaken about truth, right? Then he should stop it already.

    - But instead he makes the additional mistake of not correcting the first mistake, when presented with reality = your explanations, love and apologies for attempting to hide the visit to your platonic friend.
    (I do hope you have explained why you were hiding the visit: namely that you fear he's not able to deal with the facts. More on this below!)

    - He is questioning your fundamental integrity to yourself and commitment to him. Which to me and other authenticity-seeking ENFPs is quite an insult if I do everything to stay true to both. Such insults can be said in a moment of fear and weakness, they can be countered with reassurance and then forgiven. But he must really do his bit and stop repeating the insult in a reality-resistant loop. It seems like he doesn't care about what you say. Which is again an insult, but can be worked through.


    As for your mistake: lying about an innocent social visit:
    You know that hiding it was a bad choice of yours, but not the visit itself. Now you should investigate & let him in on why you lied: How much do you really trust his maturity to deal with you having a social life?
    You assumed that him knowing the innocent truth about whom you visit will hurt him and start a pointless conflict, right? ENFPs really don't like emotional conflicts and I guess that's why you did the (equally immature) crap with omitting, lying and hiding some completely legitimate actions AS IF they weren't legitimate. you'd rather tell a white lie than awaken all this irrational crap in him again. Been there, done that. But if you 'protect' him, as if he were a child, you don't trust he is mature enough to handle difficult feelings. Your conflict / fear is that you need to love him as an adult, but don't trust he is able to differentiate between his feelings of fear and real reasons to fear. If you are afraid his irrational fear will constrain you if he knew you'd visit male friends, then you'll have to deal with your fear of negociating this potential conflict openly.

    Thus the trust-issues cut both ways:
    He'll have to find out if you can be trusted not to cheat by letting you out to socialise without control and accusations.
    You'll have to find out if he can be trusted to deal with his feelings by letting him in on your social life without omissions and 'protection'. Meaning that you have to work with conflict avoidance yourself, dare insist on your judgment of what kinds of social freedom is fair and why you need it, and give him a chance to grow with the challenge.



    His issues:

    He has a lot of really upsetting feelings of fear. When people feel stuff, we need it to make sense. The desire to justify our feelings can be so strong that in the absence of real reasons we might proceed to invent a reason. That is what he is doing now. He feels so crappy that he thinks it MUST have an objective reason, and thus he infers that you MUST have cheated on him. He tries to make his feeling justifyiable by external causes instead of internal. ("I *feel* God's presence, thus He must exist..." etc.) But an INTJ should be too smart to play such tricks with his mind once he has calmed down and can begin to think again. Feelings of fear doesn't make what he fears true, so I agree with the advise of talking to his Thinking side again, reminding him of the difference between fear and the objective existence of a harmful act. He has checked with objective reality (confronted you) and should now accept that his assumption wasn't true. Instead of making misguided alterations of objective reality (breaking up) based on an untruthful assumption, he should, together with you, address the real reality: his fear.
    It's a very human fear of loss and hurt, and it will likely hit us when we begin to dare to love. Loving is scary shit. And it's supposed to be scary to be worth anything, because you put a lot of yourself at stake when letting someone close. Thus how he and you learn to deal with those fears is part of building your love solid or leaving it frail. For the relationship to work not only will he need to trust your integrity, but you'll also have to trust him being able to deal with your social reality.
    And both should trust that conflicts can be dealt with together.

    If the two of you address these feelings of trust and fear you'd have two objectives:

    1. that he can feel loved and secure in your relationship again, and can differentiate between his feelings and the reality: instead of accusing you every time his fear pops up, he will need to trust the communication between you. To know that he can always ask for information, re-affirmation and soothing from you, for instance. Which you'd be more than happy to give your loved one (provided it's not polluted with false accusations and installing guilt on you).

    AND:
    2. that you can feel trusted and secure with him again.
    If you are to be happy in the relationship too, you should not have to tip-toe all the time to prevent that he'll give you hell because of irrational fears. You should not act as if it's fair to accuse you of lacking integrity every time you go out the door. Show him that he is loved consistently and that you'll be working with him, not against him, when love becomes scary. Just like Amargith does. And just like you need to trust him to do.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    The above was already too long, but I feel like stressing this:

    Please don't take responsibility for how his feelings are playing games with him. You should not be catering to the illusionary part of his fears by constantly trying to 'prove' yourself as if you were on trial. You're not. Explain, reassure, love, but don't apologise for actions that were not wrong. If you do that, you'll end up very alone and stressed out and confined within the relationship. And if that's allowed to go on for years, then an ENFP can indeed reach a point where cheating (rather than open conflict) seems a way to break out of that stress and loneliness. You don't want to go there.

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