[MBTI General] Help! ENFP + INTJ woes and questions

[Amargith]

Ime, INTJs need time to digest these things. And yes, they become paranoid, unreasonable almost but you know what...they just need time to do this. Doesn't mean they're right in their actions, but it's understandable.

I remember disappointing my INTJ last year...in a way that broke his trust. We've been together for a long time and he's incredibly tolerant and non-judgemental, but that particular thing just caused insecurity in him, which caused him to not act as his natural self (and he was justified in his reaction i have to admit). What I did was appologize profusely, and explain to him how I came to do this thing, and why to me it wasn't a red flag, but that I would definitely not repeat the same mistake in the future, as I could see that to him it was important, and that was enough for me. He was reasonable enough to see that I meant it, but his feelings and trust took longer to restore. He became more possessive and controlling for a while, and I let him, as I knew he needed it. At the same time, I knew that he was understanding and reasonable enough for this to be temporary. I focused all my attention on restoring 'us', made him feel safe and loved once more, reminded him of why we were together, or so I tried. It's still a sensitive spot today, but no longer an issue, we're back to the way we were. He knows that I love him and that I wouldn't intentionally hurt him. Knowing and feeling isn't the same though. Give him time to harmonize the two and show him that you're willing to discuss this, to work at it, that *he* matters to you, that this relationship is too important to you to let it go, and explain to him why you did what you did, and that you can in fact see his point of view, without getting defensive

Good luck

 

[burymecloser]

I tried to lie about it (panicking, made an absolutely stupid move) and then he proceeded to look through my text messages to discover the ones where I was telling my ENFP friend I would meet up to catch up. He proceeded to become more infuriated than I have ever seen him (he generally is very cool and does not lose his temper - this time he did even though it only lasted about 1 minute before he became his cool, distant self.) He then told me that he could never trust me and that we have to break up and that even though I told him nothing out of the ordinary happened that night he said that he must assume that I cheated on him.

This was a really big mistake.

DO NOT LIE! INTJ 's hate liars.

To him you've broken his trust- Ni doms take forever to regain trust.

He has lost his trust of you ... it is your fault. You should have known better than to hang out with some other friend and lie about it.

Be true. Tell the truth.

From my INTJ perspective: The WORST thing you can do to an INTJ is LIE to them. It's like assuming we're idiots. I personally lose complete respect for someone who lies to me.

My first question is this: if it wasn't a big deal that you hung out with this ENFP friend, then why did you lie about it in the first place?

Nothing will permanently damage your relationship with an INTJ like deceit. It may be true that you simply panicked, but even if you're innocent of everything else, that your first instinct was to lie is troubling. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it may be something he is never able to forgive or forget.

It was I who said it was over. I say this based on the fact that this particular INTJ sounds exactly like me (word for word). Almost every single one of his actions sounds like what I would do in such a situation. Its sad, but true.

Your INTJ reacted pretty much the way I would, too, at each step (emotionally, anyway). And like Mr.Time, I doubt your relationship can be repaired. You might patch it together for a little while if you really pull out all the stops, but I think there are too many things he'll never be able to get past.

He probably feels like he doesn't mean as much to you as you did to him. Nothing you can say at this point is likely to change that, unless you can go back in time and not sleep with your friend, then prioritize your time with him over the holidays. The trust issue is at least as big. You lied about something hugely important to your relationship, something that had already been a source of conflict. You also tell him things and then don't do them.

It doesn't really sound like you have seen things from his point of view at any time in the whole process. Frankly, it doesn't sound like you want an INTJ. He's an I, and you're trying to change that. If you've expressed this to him, I guarantee you he resents it.

If nothing else I would love to hear other people's takes on our relationship.

My take on your relationship is that you should look for another one. I don't think INTJ is a good match for you. You seem to want someone more social than an I, and most INTJs will see you as careless about what you say/do, if not outright untrustworthy. Moving on would probably be best for both of you.

If you're determined to try to work it out, patience will be key. It's going to take a lot of time -- and considerable effort on your part -- to get your relationship halfway healthy again. Amargith's advice is very good, if you're willing and able to undertake it. You have to play with the ball in his court right now: apologize and explain yourself logically -- become a T for a day. Go out of your way to spend time with him, even to the exclusion of others, and do (unusually) nice things for him. You have to show him that he's really special to you. And above all else, if you tell him you're going to do something, do it. Little trust issues will be huge for the foreseeable future.

 

[megm87]

Thank you all for your replies, this is exactly what I needed. I am going to wing answering questions I remember first, then I'll go back and read through and directly answer ones I might have missed. The ENFP I hung out with was not the mutual friend I slept with, I stopped talking to him a long time ago even before my INTJ knew that we had slept together - and also reiterated that I would not have contact with him after he found out. You are right, I need to remember how little introverts need social time. I definitely want and introvert because I know that I could not be with another E, and I really do not mind (and in fact very much enjoy) staying in or just spending time with me and him. I just lost sight of just how little he needs people time compared to me (I knew it was less but had really forgotten just how much so), and I am so glad that you all have reminded me of that. I do want an INTJ (definitely not opposed to dating other types just love the unique connection that my boyfriend and I share), I think that it has just been hard for me to be with one that has been so down on himself and in such a frustrating point of life for so long now. I have alot of patience but I feel like sometimes I keep pouring more and more comfort out and that I'm getting drained sometimes maybe? I think again this is my fault because either way he needs to work through alot of these things on his own and I shouldn't burden myself with worrying about how it's all going to resolve itself when there's really not much I can do. He has been very good with dealing with all the stuff that has come his way as well. My ex was an ISTP and every time something went wrong it was the end of the world and he would take it out on me and seriously need me to pull him back up out of it-my INTJ has never done that and I know he never would.

I also think that sometimes I still try to do things how I had to do them with my ex (we were together for 3 years and I probably needed more time between that relationship and this one), which brings me to answer why I think I lied. I did nothing to wrong my INTJ that night I caught up with my friend, he was already asleep when I got into town so obviously couldn't have told him before I met up with him but easily could have the next day. I had to develop some type of autonomy/guard around myself when I was with the ISTP and had to learn to constantly be on guard which led to me turning into a person that I hated-which is when I finally got out of the relationship. I was lying to him (out of fear of his reactions even over little things), leaving info out (which you all are right I do sincerely need to work on) and just totally resented him by the end of us being together. I swore I would never let another person turn me into that again. However, I feel like I have carried over some of those old habits, not the lying and resentment but the fear of the other person blowing up at me over anything and everything. It's so silly because I know that my INTJ would never react that way because he never has, but since we've been together I've had to seriously work on trusting that he won't be verbally abusive like my ex. In this situation with my old friend I just got more and more scared the longer I waited to tell him about it and then convinced myself he would just be mad no matter what and that it was better to just 'leave that information out.' So sad because even as I did it I knew it was wrong and would end up worse in the end.

I also heartily agree with needing to done on my T cap for awhile, which he has taught me to do so well and I love him for it. Last night we talked for a couple hours and I used strictly reasoning and kept feelings out of it of why he could trust me and explained why I lied and apologized again and admitted it was a very stupid move. We are currently back together but I still fear that he won't ever be able to be the same with me again . I need to heed your advice Amargith and remember that he has every right to be distrustful for a little while and that it won't be an over night change.

Oh one more thing I forgot to address, I drive to see him every weekend so the reason I spent time with my friends and family over xmas more is because my friends were flying in from far away places and I only get to see them maybe 2 times a year. I do wish I would have spent more time with him than I had, though or at least not told him that I would 'be able to see him so much' (this he expressed was more the mistake.)

That's another thing, how do I convince him to want to come drive and see me? I tried asking if he would sometimes (he doesn't have a job or anything right now but I work M-F 8-5 so I can only come for a few days at a time) but he says that every time he has come it's been a bad experience (first time he came my INFJ roommate's boyfriend and her broke up and I had to console her for a couple hours one of the nights and the last time was when the whole ENFP friend lie thing went down :/).

 

[megm87]

PS thanks for all of the hugs everyone!

 

[Amargith]

Ok well, he still needs to put in effort too. So this time tease him and promise him a weekend filled with fun
He's male, he's INTJ...nothing like a weekend filled with some special treats and pleasure to unwind after a hard week
And do make it worth his while, watching movies together, cuddling and physical touch (did I mention that they thrive on this shit? They're closet cuddle monsters!), focus on the two of you and tell him you can better pamper him at home, to lure him over.

Keep things positive and fun, and although you can condone a little sulking and paranoid behavior...he does *not* own you or get to hold this against you to get emotionally blackmail you forever. However, let him be possessive and hold all your attention for a while, he's worth it and he needs it.

Oh and one more thing...if you genuinly love each other, you also know each other through and through. That means that you're allowed to make a mistake, and he's allowed to be pissed over it. That also means that together, there's nothing you cannot solve or face. You're a team, you against the world. Trust in him. If he truly loves you, he desperately wants to trust you again. Rise to the occasion, don't doubt him, or yourself, but show him that he can depend on you, that you are very much aware of what he needs.Give him what he needs, and believe that he will restore the emotional bond that you so desperately miss right now. Trust me, he wants the same thing you do, and you kinda hold the key to his ability of closing that gap

Edit: you're probably used to him being the emotional rock in the relationship. This time, it's his turn to be emo. Be his rock. Be emotionally dependable and stable. It's exhausting, but worth it

 

[the state i am in]

my impression is that he's probably an sx/sp. the inner conflict about intensity is terrifying for sx/sp (injs), especially e5s who dont' trust their ability to handle their emotions in the moment. it's a constant push-pull, on-off, hot-cold. how can he give you all his intensity, focus, energy, when yours is so much more disparate, easy-going, whimsical, etc? when he feels so deliberate, when staying open is very difficult, threatening (to identity), makes him vulnerable, etc. bc the big difference is the past is an enormous beast that cannot be slayed for injs and for enps the past is immediately forgotten, bc the present is reminding you of all the future possibilities. injs skip the present entirely for most of their lives, the future is entirely based on the weighty, unceasing, eternal past. nietzsche (intj 5w4 sx/sp) invented the eternal recurrence. it makes your shoulders sag, and affirming it is the most difficult thing in the world.

as for your situation, you could go to your friend's house and hang out. or you could imagine your boyfriend's interpretation of events and choose to not go. he is being extremely controlling. his emotions are becoming more important than yours (bc they are at a more dangerous elevation, currently). it is up to you to decide what is most important to you, and to show that you are trying to find him. this is the most important part. if you are trying to find him, and if you are allowing your findings to influence what you do (and not just give you enough information to avoid his current (and unfair) wrath), than you are trying to fix it. but the next step is that you need to communicate with him (as kalach pointed out). you need to show him solid perceptual images of what has been true, things that he is filtering out. i have this constant revisionist total fucking devastation of the past when i am in this kind of state. i forget all kinds of things that are true, that are true enough for me to calm down. i do not hear anyone, or see anyone, and YOU would become a mere abstraction. an idea. a representation of the past, of my own painful feelings, and most of all, my own fears. show him that you are not just an idea, that your past wasn't a lie, and that your feelings are real. he will not give his energies to you unless you show him that you are willing to invest in equal measure.

the sx/sp tension is extremely counterphobic. dwelling on the worst to protect overdrawing, over-committing, being made too vulnerable, humiliated, etc. bc the sp is full of fears, a strong "worst case scenario" thinking pattern, awareness of potential problems, etc. it's currently what you're experiencing, and how it is kind of fucking up his life right now (which is true, and he SHOULD go out and be more social, and withdrawing to deal with this is not the only way and rarely the best way, especially without a creative outlet to help improve self-understanding). these are very difficult situations and he has to break this for himself and his own future. whether he is too difficult and not worth it is up to you. it could be a really negative thing for him, or it could be the kind of T CHECK heart and brain mentions. i've needed that T check a few times (to recognize the logical outcome of this behavior, this no one can win, no one's ever gonna win with me attitude), and that's a kind of motivation to transcend your emotions and see a greater truth, but damn, my emotions still resonate with the inj characters in each of these situations. a deeply romantic streak that feels violated, ashamed, discarded. you just want to fucking disappear... (but can find no escape and no solace)

 

[FigerPuppet]

I also think that sometimes I still try to do things how I had to do them with my ex (we were together for 3 years and I probably needed more time between that relationship and this one), which brings me to answer why I think I lied. I did nothing to wrong my INTJ that night I caught up with my friend, he was already asleep when I got into town so obviously couldn't have told him before I met up with him but easily could have the next day. I had to develop some type of autonomy/guard around myself when I was with the ISTP and had to learn to constantly be on guard which led to me turning into a person that I hated-which is when I finally got out of the relationship. I was lying to him (out of fear of his reactions even over little things), leaving info out (which you all are right I do sincerely need to work on) and just totally resented him by the end of us being together. I swore I would never let another person turn me into that again. However, I feel like I have carried over some of those old habits, not the lying and resentment but the fear of the other person blowing up at me over anything and everything. It's so silly because I know that my INTJ would never react that way because he never has, but since we've been together I've had to seriously work on trusting that he won't be verbally abusive like my ex. In this situation with my old friend I just got more and more scared the longer I waited to tell him about it and then convinced myself he would just be mad no matter what and that it was better to just 'leave that information out.' So sad because even as I did it I knew it was wrong and would end up worse in the end.

Have you told him this?

 

[megm87]

Yes, I have told him because it has come up before a few times. I have gotten much better since we first started dating-at first every time I missed his phone call I would freak out and expect him to get mad because that's how it was with my ex, I would even get out of the shower mid shower to answer which looking back is crazy how I could assume another person would be that way but I was just so conditioned. He is understanding about it but I know it still must be frustrating that he has to deal with that when he is not the one who put that innate but unnecessary fear in me. In fact, me telling him this last night is one of the things that I think might have helped him understand where I was coming from.

 

[Heart&Brain]

I agree with Amargith that patience and understanding and reaffirmation is the way to go. But it's a way to go out of LOVE. Not out of a screwed up sense of guilt and blame.

He is accusing you of something you have not done and he ignores new information. (How would INTJs react to false accusations? And further: how would INTJs react to not being heard or believed when they explain how the accusation is false? Seriously, how long would you repeat loving apologies and explanations that are ignored before you'd do the doorslam?)

So I tend to disagree with the rather draconic judgmental INTJ-remarks above, and want to say that HE makes some mistakes:

- He, not you, is making the false assumption that you've cheated on him which isn't true. An INTJ doesn't like to be mistaken about truth, right? Then he should stop it already.

- But instead he makes the additional mistake of not correcting the first mistake, when presented with reality = your explanations, love and apologies for attempting to hide the visit to your platonic friend.
(I do hope you have explained why you were hiding the visit: namely that you fear he's not able to deal with the facts. More on this below!)

- He is questioning your fundamental integrity to yourself and commitment to him. Which to me and other authenticity-seeking ENFPs is quite an insult if I do everything to stay true to both. Such insults can be said in a moment of fear and weakness, they can be countered with reassurance and then forgiven. But he must really do his bit and stop repeating the insult in a reality-resistant loop. It seems like he doesn't care about what you say. Which is again an insult, but can be worked through.


As for your mistake: lying about an innocent social visit:
You know that hiding it was a bad choice of yours, but not the visit itself. Now you should investigate & let him in on why you lied: How much do you really trust his maturity to deal with you having a social life?
You assumed that him knowing the innocent truth about whom you visit will hurt him and start a pointless conflict, right? ENFPs really don't like emotional conflicts and I guess that's why you did the (equally immature) crap with omitting, lying and hiding some completely legitimate actions AS IF they weren't legitimate. you'd rather tell a white lie than awaken all this irrational crap in him again. Been there, done that. But if you 'protect' him, as if he were a child, you don't trust he is mature enough to handle difficult feelings. Your conflict / fear is that you need to love him as an adult, but don't trust he is able to differentiate between his feelings of fear and real reasons to fear. If you are afraid his irrational fear will constrain you if he knew you'd visit male friends, then you'll have to deal with your fear of negociating this potential conflict openly.

Thus the trust-issues cut both ways:
He'll have to find out if you can be trusted not to cheat by letting you out to socialise without control and accusations.
You'll have to find out if he can be trusted to deal with his feelings by letting him in on your social life without omissions and 'protection'. Meaning that you have to work with conflict avoidance yourself, dare insist on your judgment of what kinds of social freedom is fair and why you need it, and give him a chance to grow with the challenge.



His issues:
He has a lot of really upsetting feelings of fear. When people feel stuff, we need it to make sense. The desire to justify our feelings can be so strong that in the absence of real reasons we might proceed to invent a reason. That is what he is doing now. He feels so crappy that he thinks it MUST have an objective reason, and thus he infers that you MUST have cheated on him. He tries to make his feeling justifyiable by external causes instead of internal. ("I *feel* God's presence, thus He must exist..." etc.) But an INTJ should be too smart to play such tricks with his mind once he has calmed down and can begin to think again. Feelings of fear doesn't make what he fears true, so I agree with the advise of talking to his Thinking side again, reminding him of the difference between fear and the objective existence of a harmful act. He has checked with objective reality (confronted you) and should now accept that his assumption wasn't true. Instead of making misguided alterations of objective reality (breaking up) based on an untruthful assumption, he should, together with you, address the real reality: his fear.
It's a very human fear of loss and hurt, and it will likely hit us when we begin to dare to love. Loving is scary shit. And it's supposed to be scary to be worth anything, because you put a lot of yourself at stake when letting someone close. Thus how he and you learn to deal with those fears is part of building your love solid or leaving it frail. For the relationship to work not only will he need to trust your integrity, but you'll also have to trust him being able to deal with your social reality.
And both should trust that conflicts can be dealt with together.

If the two of you address these feelings of trust and fear you'd have two objectives:

1. that he can feel loved and secure in your relationship again, and can differentiate between his feelings and the reality: instead of accusing you every time his fear pops up, he will need to trust the communication between you. To know that he can always ask for information, re-affirmation and soothing from you, for instance. Which you'd be more than happy to give your loved one (provided it's not polluted with false accusations and installing guilt on you).

AND:
2. that you can feel trusted and secure with him again.
If you are to be happy in the relationship too, you should not have to tip-toe all the time to prevent that he'll give you hell because of irrational fears. You should not act as if it's fair to accuse you of lacking integrity every time you go out the door. Show him that he is loved consistently and that you'll be working with him, not against him, when love becomes scary. Just like Amargith does. And just like you need to trust him to do.

 

[Heart&Brain]

The above was already too long, but I feel like stressing this:

Please don't take responsibility for how his feelings are playing games with him. You should not be catering to the illusionary part of his fears by constantly trying to 'prove' yourself as if you were on trial. You're not. Explain, reassure, love, but don't apologise for actions that were not wrong. If you do that, you'll end up very alone and stressed out and confined within the relationship. And if that's allowed to go on for years, then an ENFP can indeed reach a point where cheating (rather than open conflict) seems a way to break out of that stress and loneliness. You don't want to go there.

 

[Little Linguist]

Sounds like both of you are making completely unreasonable demands on each other.

First, you. YOU WANT TO GO OUT EVERY NIGHT? Jesus.

Look, I may be, you know, one of the most extraverted people on this forum, but LET ME TELL YOU: That would be wayyyy too much 'going out'. In addition, when I have a goal that is extremely important for me, I have a one-track mind. Time stops. My mind is totally focused on reaching the target, and to hell with any idiot who tries to distract me.

This goal is so important to him that he's investing every bit of his strength into it. Why don't you just support the guy and say, "Hey, I'm here if you need me." It's better than trying to drag him kicking and screaming (figuratively speaking) into a world that doesn't fit his view. Honestly, if he's going out three times a month, he's probably making a HUGE EFFORT on his part to meet your needs. Ferk, I don't even go out to party three times a month. Hell, I probably party once or twice a year because I am extraverted in a VERY DIFFERENT way.

If you were to expect me to go out every day or even every week, after a while, I'd get very, very, very, very, very, very, veryyyyyyyyyyyyy grumpy.

Try to see it from his perspective. He's 'already failed' once. He cannot 'afford' to do it again. So he's investing all his energy into this. Support him.

On the other hand, this dude is also going unnaturally ape-shit crazy. Okay, so you slept with one of his best friends. Not cool. But if you weren't dating, that's just collateral damage right? No risk, no fun. How could you know you'd end up dating one day? He needs to calm his butt down a bit and take the oak tree out of his rear end. And if he has no evidence that you cheated (although it is rather suspicious) he's jumping to conclusions, probably because he's stressed to hell.

My suggestion: Let it rest. Wait until he's accepted into medical school - he'll be on a high, all happy with himself and in a super-great mood. THEN see what happens, and if things develop well, give it another shot.

But if you push it and push it, the worst case scenario is: He will fail again and blame you, even if it's not your fault. Then, you're screwed in the long-run with this guy because he'll always have that nagging him, and he'll always project his failure onto you.

So just be patient, and see what happens.

 

[megm87]

Please don't take responsibility for how his feelings are playing games with him. You should not be catering to the illusionary part of his fears by constantly trying to 'prove' yourself as if you were on trial.

I really need to listen to this in particular, he has a bad way of 'testing' people to 'truly see how they are.' It's like a science experiment for him, his subject (friend, family member, or me) is 'tested' in different scenarios so that he can see how they react. For instance, say a comment he doesn't really mean but wants to see if I will provide outcome A, B, C or even maybe unknown. In this way he feels that he can truly get to know me without worrying about my feelings clouding his judgement (as far as he knows it is truly unbiased because I [or whoever is involved] do not realize I am being 'tested' and my true colors will show through whether they be good or bad. The problem is after I realized (and he'd admitted) that he implements this as a tactic of sorts in relationships there's no way my reactions would be unbiased and I was constantly wondering 'is this another test?' I discussed this with him on the phone yesterday (I finally stuck up for myself about things that had been bothering me after discussing the issues he had with me - something he has been urging my conflict-phobic self to do) and told him that he cannot do this anymore. Not only does it not even work now that I am aware of it (if it even did to begin with) but people are not lab rats and you should just ask them if you're worried or curious about something (even if it means getting in a sticky emotional conversation ).

I do also need to be more mature myself and share my social life openly with him instead of worrying about the possible confrontation or being afraid that it will encourage his fears - I know that he is level headed enough (even if not right at the moment) to know that I am completely faithful and simply just a social creature who needs to see her friends now and again, and if I would have never made the mistake of keeping things in my social life from him he probably would be much closer to being his usual understanding, rational self.

And you right, fear can do crazy things to people-I know it has to me before!

 

[the state i am in]

the problem with testing is that there's never enough. you're never getting what you want. you're always just avoiding what you're afraid of. and the testing sets a positive goal for the worst case scenario. this is why it's counterphobic. there's a great discussion of this in many a kundera book (ie the farewell party).

 

[megm87]

Little Linguist, you are right I should not be trying to drag him out to parties and what not. I didn't mean that by what I said, though (sorry it was worded poorly.) I meant that he needs to re-craft his own personal social identity because right now he has syphoned what used to be bounced off of his many friends in college all onto me. He used to go out fairly often of his own accord ( I knew him as an acquaintance before we dated) and was very happy. I'm not saying he should go back to that same person or that exact same lifestyle - he was different then and in a completely different scenario (in college and in a fraternity.)

An example would be after he moved back home (post grad school awaiting med school interviews which is currently what he's doing) one of his best friends from highschool (also an INTJ he has told me) also ended up back in our home town. He has tried time and time again to contact my boyfriend to catch up and maybe just hang out, see a movie, play video games, etc. and not only has my boyfriend not taken him up on his offer but he has not even responded. I realize this is because he is unhappy with the stage in life he is at right now (not already in medical school like his 'plan' for himself) and is embarrassed that he was not accepted last year in his first round applying and doesn't wish to share this with his friend whom he respects. That being said I really think that reconnecting with such a close, trusted friend (who as equally as socially undemanding) who understands him so well in a such a bad time in his life would be one of the best things for him. Getting another opinion or being able to talk about the things going on with him with even one person other than me and maybe his mom seems like it would be good. This is all I would like him to do (and would never force him in any way - don't worry I know better haha), not go out all hours of the night or go to crazy parties. If he wanted to I'd be all for it, but only if he wanted to. Even I myself would rather hang out with a few close friends than go to some big party.

Another example is that his best friend from college who is now married to another girl we knew has been trying to get us to come visit them (they have a guest room we could stay in so it's very convenient and they only live about 2 hours away) and my boyfriend keeps putting it off. Like he'll agree that we should go in the next month and then whenever I try and bring it up he is like 'mmmm not this weekend.' Now by saying I bring it up I don't mean I press the issue every single weekend, I mean that after I know that my boyfriend has actively talked to his friend about visiting sometime in the future every now in then (every 5-6 weeks-ish) I will say something about it. Mostly, if nothing else, because it is rude from my point of view to tell someone you would like to come visit them in their new house and then never follow up. Especially because his friend (who is actually our mutual friend, but obviously much closer to my INTJ) is an ESFP (wife is ENTJ) and I know that it would hurt his feelings. But my INTJ is like 'well maybe that's just another friendship I should just let go.' I'm afraid he is saying this not because he is truly done with the friendship (this ESFP has done nothing to wrong my boyfriend and has always been there for him) but because he is just actively shutting people out right now in his unhappy state. I'm sorry that what I said about wanting him to go out more wasn't explained better, and I do need to realize a little more internally just how unsocial of a creature he really is or has become now that he is out of college.

 

[Kra]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this (cause I'm too lazy to read the rest after that OP), but it doesn't seem like it's a lost cause just yet.

The following is incredibly presumptuous, and should be taken as such.

Personally, I would have wrote you off already if I were him (and had the same issues that he had with the happenings that you mentioned). If he's anything like me, the fact that he hasn't stonewalled you yet means that there's something holding him to you.

Though you should be upfront with him, especially when dealing with other guys (even more so since you know it bothers him), he's being unreasonably paranoid due to things that preceded his involvement with you. Yeah feelings might get hurt by finding out something like that, but sometimes an INTJ has to let their Te backhand some sense into their Fi to keep it from ruining everything.

 

[megm87]

you're probably used to him being the emotional rock in the relationship. This time, it's his turn to be emo. Be his rock. Be emotionally dependable and stable. It's exhausting, but worth it

So, so true. Thank you for that nice insight, Amargith. I had not thought of it that way at all

 

[megm87]

Personally, I would have wrote you off already if I were him. If he's anything like me, the fact that he hasn't stonewalled you yet means that there's something holding him to you.

I had a feeling of this too, but wasn't sure if it was my undying optimism . I, too expected him to write me off as soon as we had finished the initial discussion and was very suprised to find that he was still trying to contact me after. This indeed is what gave me the hint that our relationship could possibly be salvaged.

Yeah feelings might get hurt by finding out something like that, but sometimes an INTJ has to let their Te backhand some sense into their Fi to keep it from ruining everything.

Touche, very good point. I hope that now that things have settled down somewhat on the emotional front (after our conversation we had last night) that he will finish working through this stuff and utilize his Te just so. Thank you for reading my post and commenting

 

[Kalach]

I agree with Amargith that patience and understanding and reaffirmation is the way to go. But it's a way to go out of LOVE. Not out of a screwed up sense of guilt and blame.

He is accusing you of something you have not done and he ignores new information. (How would INTJs react to false accusations? And further: how would INTJs react to not being heard or believed when they explain how the accusation is false? Seriously, how long would you repeat loving apologies and explanations that are ignored before you'd do the doorslam?)

So I tend to disagree with the rather draconic judgmental INTJ-remarks above, and want to say that HE makes some mistakes: [...]

He is making mistakes. State lays out the origin of it above, I think.

Perception.

Interestingly, IT'S EMO! Crazy perception being driven by destabilised emo. And what's destabilised it? Not just Meg. He's got the life-plan going to hell, he's living back at home, he doesn't see his girlfriend much, and she's weird about truth. Which one of these is the more pressing? Who knows, but the stress and distress of all the other stuff is adding itself into a greater fixity of decision, making much less flexibility... the martyring thing.

Yeah, sure, he should be more flexible. The intemperate demand that everything get back on track right now is exhausting and unrealistic. What'll snap him out of it is either the hard sad lesson that takes a long time to learn, that breaking up is hard to do, or something successful. Some actual break that stops this perception loop. A job, a new school, a different life plan... something that works. The emo's driving this show, not the thinking, but the thinking gets back into front seat IF SOMETHING STARTS WORKING. Something. Anything.

So, the inflexibility is real, it's a strength turned inward, and intellectually he could give it up easily. But if the people around him are teaching him that everything works better IF HE DOES NOT RELY ON THEM...

Yeah, so... emo extremes. INTJs go way out of whack on those things. And this guy sounds a bit odd anyway. Vis:

I really need to listen to this in particular, he has a bad way of 'testing' people to 'truly see how they are.' It's like a science experiment for him, his subject (friend, family member, or me) is 'tested' in different scenarios so that he can see how they react. For instance, say a comment he doesn't really mean but wants to see if I will provide outcome A, B, C or even maybe unknown. In this way he feels that he can truly get to know me without worrying about my feelings clouding his judgement (as far as he knows it is truly unbiased because I [or whoever is involved] do not realize I am being 'tested' and my true colors will show through whether they be good or bad. The problem is after I realized (and he'd admitted) that he implements this as a tactic of sorts in relationships there's no way my reactions would be unbiased and I was constantly wondering 'is this another test?' I discussed this with him on the phone yesterday (I finally stuck up for myself about things that had been bothering me after discussing the issues he had with me - something he has been urging my conflict-phobic self to do) and told him that he cannot do this anymore. Not only does it not even work now that I am aware of it (if it even did to begin with) but people are not lab rats and you should just ask them if you're worried or curious about something (even if it means getting in a sticky emotional conversation ).

Yeah, that's weird. He needs to stop doing that or you need to start calling him ENTP.

Seriously, there's an INTJ out there who doesn't go out, doesn't look up old friends, gets super down on himself about missing opportunities, and still has time to screw with people?

Does he have values of his own? Is he aware of his own values? The isolationist nature implied by testing people suggests (quite weakly tho) that he doesn't know yet too much about what he values.

What are his values?

(A question like this puts thinking back on track. Nutcase emo is all well and good, but going nuclear in a teacup is pointless, embarrassing even, if it doesn't go somewhere true. So, what are his values?)

 

[burymecloser]

Heart&Brain, you make some very valid points, but the issue is this: only one of them wants to end the relationship right now, and it's him. No one is saying this guy is blameless, but right now, if the relationship is going to be repaired, she's the one who has to do it. He broke up with her. If she wants to re-evaluate her feelings about whether she wants to be with this guy, that might not be a bad idea. But casting blame towards him or making demands of him would be really counterproductive at this point.

Meg, it sounds like you recognize this. He has done things wrong, and you've been a saint to get through all of them with what sounds like a minimum of anger. But right now there's nothing to be gained by pointing out his shortcomings or trying to get an apology out of him.

So I tend to disagree with the rather draconic judgmental INTJ-remarks above, and want to say that HE makes some mistakes:

- He, not you, is making the false assumption that you've cheated on him which isn't true. An INTJ doesn't like to be mistaken about truth, right? Then he should stop it already.

- But instead he makes the additional mistake of not correcting the first mistake, when presented with reality = your explanations, love and apologies for attempting to hide the visit to your platonic friend.
(I do hope you have explained why you were hiding the visit: namely that you fear he's not able to deal with the facts. More on this below!)

- He is questioning your fundamental integrity to yourself and commitment to him. Which to me and other authenticity-seeking ENFPs is quite an insult if I do everything to stay true to both. Such insults can be said in a moment of fear and weakness, they can be countered with reassurance and then forgiven. But he must really do his bit and stop repeating the insult in a reality-resistant loop. It seems like he doesn't care about what you say. Which is again an insult, but can be worked through.

Every INTJ who has posted in this thread has said something about how devastating it is for us to be lied to, how damaging it is to the trust in a relationship. Your instinct as an F may be to forgive or to grant the benefit of the doubt. Ours is skepticism and punishment. I do believe Meg, but you've got to understand why he doesn't. It's just her word, and she has already lied about this subject. There's no proof to support her, and there is a very logical reason for him not to believe her.

How would INTJs react to false accusations?

Logically. If someone said out of the blue that I had cheated simply because I spent time with someone else, I would react angrily. If I had spent time with someone else and then lied about it, I would understand why they had drawn the conclusion they had and empathize. I would place the blame on myself (for lying, not for going out) and work to remedy the situation. He has a legitimate basis for his accusation; it's not sheer paranoia. It sounds like Meg is doing this the best way possible right now, and (completely counter to what I wrote in my first post to this thread :redface really understanding things from his point of view.

Thus the trust-issues cut both ways:
He'll have to find out if you can be trusted not to cheat by letting you out to socialise without control and accusations.
You'll have to find out if he can be trusted to deal with his feelings by letting him in on your social life without omissions and 'protection'. Meaning that you have to work with conflict avoidance yourself, dare insist on your judgment of what kinds of social freedom is fair and why you need it, and give him a chance to grow with the challenge.

This is right, but... for a little while, she needs to play the game his way. There's a delicate balance in play. She musn't let a pattern develop in which she doesn't go out or ignores her extravert needs; it would be very unhealthy for him to grow to expect that. But right now, temporarily, she's trying to win back his trust, and this isn't the right time to push him or test boundaries.

 

[megm87]

The intemperate demand that everything get back on track right now is exhausting and unrealistic. What'll snap him out of it is either the hard sad lesson that takes a long time to learn, that breaking up is hard to do, or something successful. Some actual break that stops this perception loop. A job, a new school, a different life plan... something that works. The emo's driving this show, not the thinking, but the thinking gets back into front seat IF SOMETHING STARTS WORKING. Something. Anything.

So true, I really hope that something starts working for him soon-he more than deserves it to! I should try to make sure that I am not another stress in his life but something safe he can come to when everything else is stormy. I feel like this was almost (ironically) the reason I didn't tell him about hanging out with my friend, I feel like he already had so much going on that not only would he irrationally get very upset (my instinct: yikes possible confrontation-run!) but then get more stressed. I now realize (and honestly deep down did then but my fear of confrontation overrode my intuition) that by not telling him it in the end created more stress than telling him upfront ever would have . I just need to work on my fear of confrontation because while we were discussing this he kept reiterating the fact that very little 'confrontation' will come from just admitting something/telling him up front (especially something as non-threatening as hanging out with a platonic friend he has even met before.) I just get so scared when confrontation is looming! ...time to get over it though haha