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[MBTI General] Worth vs. Intelligence

Stanton Moore

morose bourgeoisie
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Of course worth is a relative term, but for the purposes of this discussion let us take worth to mean one's worth to society with regard to the betterment of life quality for all members of said society (technological, logistical, etc.) So a janitor would be worth something because s/he betters our living environment; an inventor would be worth something because s/he can come up with things to make our lives easier; a farmer would be worth something because he provides food to the masses.

My question is this:
Imagine if the worth of each of the 16 types were represented in 16 graphs as functions of their raw intelligence (we're not considering any other factor here). What would the graphs for each of the types look like? Which type's level of worth is affected most by his/her level of intelligence.

Ex. - I'd imagine that an INTP of below average intelligence would be worth much less than an ISTJ of similar intelligence. The INTP graph might start out pretty low, but once a certain level of intelligence were reached the INTP would become quite a bit more useful to society.

Sounds like eugenics to me.
 

Jonny

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Sounds like eugenics to me.

The discussion of worth vs. intelligence? Oh, you're a J... of course you'd have to immediately draw conclusions and seek action from a friendly discussion about correlations. ;-D

So ESTJ, how much do you think the worth of your type is affected by the intelligence of your type? Remember to consider worth as I have framed it in my OP (Not that I consider that to be the ultimate worth, but in order to have a coherent discussion the topic must be clearly defined).

__________________________________________________

I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

Maybe that means I'm a unintelligent NT, and hence totally worthless?
Who knows? :shock:

Purpose? To amuse me and anyone else who wishes to post here.


__________________________________________________

Could be worth less. Intelligence is one of the INTPs key assets. It would be like having a lazy ISTJ... what good is that going to do anyone?

But at the same time, for every 4 ISTJs there are in the population, there is only 1 INTP. So even a below average intelligence INTP might be worth more. Supply and demand.

So you're judging the worth of a nature resource by its scarcity? Perhaps, if there were a sufficient demand for what INTPs offered.

__________________________________________________

Have you actually encountered one of these? That's like saying a weak person who spends all day working out.

I've taken a few philosophy courses, and observed INTPs who were really into the subject (like lifetime passion status). I found that there ideas were a bit convoluted, but then again, I could have been the convoluted one. Either way, there is at least one stupid/misguided INTP out there... ;-D

__________________________________________________

I've met plenty of bright NT's who are fairly worthless when it comes to contributing to society. I believe that EQ is more often the limiting factor for NT's rather than IQ. A lot of NT's carry themselves like they're better than everyone else, and that really limits their ability to contribute to society.

I could see EQ being a factor, but this is a discussion about the entire populations of each of the particular types, and how intelligence vs. worth would be represented on a graph. For the purposes of this discussion we would take all members of each type population without regard to any other factors. If I were going to attempt a scientific study, I would probably attempt to eliminate other major contributing factors from my data-pool, but this is purely conjecture.

Let me ask you this question: EQ being equal among a population of NTs, what would their intelligence vs. worth graph look like?
 

Mad Hatter

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So a janitor would be worth something because s/he betters our living environment; an inventor would be worth something because s/he can come up with things to make our lives easier; a farmer would be worth something because he provides food to the masses.

All of the things you've mentioned as examples of "worth" concerning ISTJs are external objects with some sort of positive attribute (i.e. a value judgment) attached to them. In other words: Extraverted Judging.
ISTJs have Te, INTPs have Ti, a form of Introverted Judging. The "worth" you are speaking basically means "useful", i.e. directed at the affecting the environment in a positive way.
The answer to your question is already determined by the way you have set your premise. If being useful in the sense mentioned above is what you consider "worthy", then of course Te comes off as more useful. Your question is basically "Is Te better at Te than Ti".
 

ajblaise

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So you're judging the worth of a nature resource by its scarcity? Perhaps, if there were a sufficient demand for what INTPs offered.

The US is really falling behind in science and math. We need INTPs now more than ever.

We're like rare albino tigers.
 

Stanton Moore

morose bourgeoisie
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The discussion of worth vs. intelligence? Oh, you're a J... of course you'd have to immediately draw conclusions and seek action from a friendly discussion about correlations. ;-D

So ESTJ, how much do you think the worth of your type is affected by the intelligence of your type? Remember to consider worth as I have framed it in my OP (Not that I consider that to be the ultimate worth, but in order to have a coherent discussion the topic must be clearly defined).
_______________________________________________

I would say that using intelligence as a measure means you would use IQ as a proxy for it? But IQ is a potential, and plenty of intelligent folks don't do much that utilizes that potential, and I don't think 'worth to society' based one projection will be accurate.
Also, I think 'worth of type' is a poor metric construct, since it cannot be measured in any concrete way, regardless of what you postulate as the statistical propensity for IQ vis-a-vis type. Perhaps you could if everyone took a standardized test, but most don't so the data is suspect from the beginning.
The reason I said it sounds like eugenics is that, how do you determine the w.t.s. of a person with mental illness? They may have an enormous IQ, but that potential is locked away. Having no demonstrable worth sounds like grounds for euthanasia, which is the endgame of eugenics. See: Nazi Germany, et alia.
 

heart

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Ex. - I'd imagine that an INTP of below average intelligence would be worth much less than an ISTJ of similar intelligence. The INTP graph might start out pretty low, but once a certain level of intelligence were reached the INTP would become quite a bit more useful to society.

Dumb INTP can't get jobs as a janitors?

What about janitor's assistant?
 

Jonny

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All of the things you've mentioned as examples of "worth" concerning ISTJs are external objects with some sort of positive attribute (i.e. a value judgment) attached to them. In other words: Extraverted Judging.
ISTJs have Te, INTPs have Ti, a form of Introverted Judging. The "worth" you are speaking basically means "useful", i.e. directed at the affecting the environment in a positive way.
The answer to your question is already determined by the way you have set your premise. If being useful in the sense mentioned above is what you consider "worthy", then of course Te comes off as more useful. Your question is basically "Is Te better at Te than Ti".

An INTP philosopher who spreads a knowledge that brings peace and happiness to others is very much useful in my opinion; perhaps I didn't give enough examples. I like to think of our minds as a kind of environment for our consciousness; and those individuals who seek to better the environment of the mind are performing basically the same function as the others who seek to better our external environment.

I am not asking is Te better than Ti, not in the least. I am asking how much any one type's intelligence affects his/her "worth."

As to your part about an answer being already determined by the question and the premise, well, conceptually this is always true. If there is to be a single ideal answer to any one question, then that answer technically already exists as part of the question. The fun is in the discovery, eh? Perhaps you meant that the answer to my question is readily apparent? If so, perhaps you could give a quick description of each one of the 16 graphs, or at the very least, the 4 quadrants (NT,NF,SJ,SP).

Thanks
 

Jonny

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Dumb INTP can't get jobs as a janitors?

What about janitor's assistant?

They very well could, but would they be as productive a janitor as a similarly intelligent ISTJ? Would they be prone to cutting corners?
 

heart

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They very well could, but would they be as productive a janitor as a similarly intelligent ISTJ? Would they be prone to cutting corners?

Cutting corners doesn't matter so long as the job gets done.

Good grief, even an INFP can work in menial jobs and get by when forced to do so. I imagine the INTP at the lower scale find their place too.
 

Jonny

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I would say that using intelligence as a measure means you would use IQ as a proxy for it? But IQ is a potential, and plenty of intelligent folks don't do much that utilizes that potential, and I don't think 'worth to society' based one projection will be accurate.
Also, I think 'worth of type' is a poor metric construct, since it cannot be measured in any concrete way, regardless of what you postulate as the statistical propensity for IQ vis-a-vis type. Perhaps you could if everyone took a standardized test, but most don't so the data is suspect from the beginning.
The reason I said it sounds like eugenics is that, how do you determine the w.t.s. of a person with mental illness? They may have an enormous IQ, but that potential is locked away. Having no demonstrable worth sounds like grounds for euthanasia, which is the endgame of eugenics. See: Nazi Germany, et alia.

So are you saying that for all 16 types the graphs have zero slope, indicated no correlation between intelligence and worth for any one type? Are you saying that the graph of intelligence and worth would be the same for each one of the 16 types? I'm not dissing anything you say, just looking for your opinion on the question that I asked.
 

Jonny

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Cutting corners doesn't matter so long as the job gets done.

Good grief, even an INFP can work in menial jobs and get by when forced to do so. I imagine the INTP at the lower scale find their place too.

So what you are saying is that you would find no difference between an INTP and ISTJ janitor, in terms of quality of work? I could believe that, although I'm prone to thinking that an ISTJ would do a better job, and at the very least take a bit more pride in his work, maybe be a bit nicer to those around him.

In any event this is an aside from the original topic.

Edit: Yes, all other things being equal, I think a nice person is of more value to society than a mean person.
 

heart

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So what you are saying is that you would find no difference between an INTP and ISTJ janitor, in terms of quality of work? I could believe that, although I'm prone to thinking that an ISTJ would do a better job, and at the very least take a bit more pride in his work, maybe be a bit nicer to those around him.

In any event this is an aside from the original topic.

Edit: Yes, all other things being equal, I think a nice person is of more value to society than a mean person.

But you are going by the measure of who does a better job has more worth to society, so what does niceness or pride have to do with anything? As long as the grime gets cleaned up adequately, what does anything else matter in the case of a janitor?

But why would an ISTJ be nicer than a INTP on the job?
 

Jonny

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But you are going by the measure of who does a better job has more worth to society, so what does niceness or pride have to do with anything? As long as the grime gets cleaned up adequately, what does anything else matter in the case of a janitor?

But why would an ISTJ be nicer than a INTP on the job?

I'm talking about the whole deal here. A person's entire value, on the job and off. Verbal abuse or rudeness or indifference < Kindness IMO. As far as a janitor is concerned, I really couldn't say with any degree of certainty that an ISTJ would make a better janitor than an INTP, so I really can't give you any evidence.

As to the second question, perhaps I spoke too soon. I consider myself a very nice INTP so I really couldn't say who would be nicer.
 

Stanton Moore

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So are you saying that for all 16 types the graphs have zero slope, indicated no correlation between intelligence and worth for any one type? Are you saying that the graph of intelligence and worth would be the same for each one of the 16 types? I'm not dissing anything you say, just looking for your opinion on the question that I asked.

There is a potential for correlation, but you must define Type (as it relates to IQ, I assume) and 'worth' very stringently. Perhaps a different, less value-loaded word than 'worth' would be a better choice?
A person with high 'worth' in the arts will have lower economic value, depending on how you define value, for instance. Van Gogh made shit for money in his life, but what is his w.t.s? Some would put it much higher than say, Sam Walton, although clearly S.W. has had a large economic impact, and was therefore of value. So how do you define and calculate worth?
 

Mad Hatter

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perhaps I didn't give enough examples.

Could be. I just thought that since there was an obvious pattern, you were defining "worth" along these lines.

I am not asking is Te better than Ti, not in the least. I am asking how much any one type's intelligence affects his/her "worth."

Having more worth = better, so to me it's just about phrasing it differently.
I mean, first of all, what are you referring to when you say "worth"? Also, since you wrote his/her worth, are you talking about being seen as worthy, or self-worth?
 

Jonny

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There is a potential for correlation, but you must define Type (as it relates to IQ, I assume) and 'worth' very stringently. Perhaps a different, less value-loaded word than 'worth' would be a better choice?
A person with high 'worth' in the arts will have lower economic value, depending on how you define value, for instance. Van Gogh made shit for money in his life, but what is his w.t.s? Some would put it much higher than say, Sam Walton, although clearly S.W. has had a large economic impact, and was therefore of value. So how do you define and calculate worth?

Hmmm, well I'm speaking of the betterment of life for others. Sometimes this can correlate with economic value, but not always. It can be in the creation of art, the making of movies, or the curing of polio. Think macro though, not micro. I understand that each individual will assign different values to things, I am speaking of entire populations here.
 

Jonny

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Also, since you wrote his/her worth, are you talking about being seen as worthy, or self-worth?

Perhaps a bit of subjective discovery will lend me a hand. Let us take a journey through your mind, shall we?

Imagine there exists a person who affects your life. Imagine that this person has made your life better (made it easier, made you happier, got you laid, etc... whatever you as an individual would consider a positive impact). This person would have positive worth. Now imagine that there exists millions of these people in your life, and you were to attempt to arrange them according to your willingness to have them never exist; i.e. have them never have affected you in a positive way. Now, imagine that everyone that you arranged does the same thing for everyone else, including you. Now imagine that each person who was arranged had all his/her "worth" summed up. Does this make sense?
 

Metamorphosis

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I've taken a few philosophy courses, and observed INTPs who were really into the subject (like lifetime passion status). I found that there ideas were a bit convoluted, but then again, I could have been the convoluted one. Either way, there is at least one stupid/misguided INTP out there... ;-D

(massive generalization ahead)

I think that INTJs, in general, are better at:

explaining complex ideas in an easy to understand way

but I think INTPs:

actually understand the concepts more thoroughly

I don't doubt at all that there are stupid INTPs out there. I do doubt, however, that they spend a significant amount of time thinking about mathematics and philosophy.
 

Jonny

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(massive generalization ahead)

I think that INTJs, in general, are better at:

explaining complex ideas in an easy to understand way

but I think INTPs:

actually understand the concepts more thoroughly

I don't doubt at all that there are stupid INTPs out there. I do doubt, however, that they spend a significant amount of time thinking about mathematics and philosophy.

I cannot speak to your generalization, as I have not been looking for evidence that supports or refutes it. As to the bold portion, I would agree with you that there probably aren't many stupid INTPs who think very much about philosophy.

Do you think that a stupid INTP is worth as much as a stupid ISTJ? ESTJ? ENTJ? etc.

For that matter, what do you think the intelligence vs. worth graph for each of the types look like? Would any be logarithmic? Linear? Parabolic? Some combination? Elliptical perhaps? Discontinuous?
 

ubiquitous1

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I've met plenty of bright NT's who are fairly worthless when it comes to contributing to society. I believe that EQ is more often the limiting factor for NT's rather than IQ. A lot of NT's carry themselves like they're better than everyone else, and that really limits their ability to contribute to society.

I was framing my answer in the context of the OP. I agree that, for some NT’s, their societal contributions would be greater with improved EQ, but EQ isn’t a measure on the standard IQ test.

Although, maybe we could create a rent an NF business for those NT’s who want to improve their EQ score.:)
 
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