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  1. #31
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    First, I do not believe in the arrangement of the cognitive processes. I only believe in the arrangement of the first two (e.g., Ne and Ti or vice versa). I don't necessarily believe that Fe or Si should be the third or fourth, necessarily.

    In tests, I do score as having a high Fi, near balanced with Ti, and I don't think my Si or Fe are stronger than my Fi, so that already puts the arrangement theory in question.

    Not to mention that the definition of the E/I duality in psychology differs from the conventional usage. And MBTI has not clearly stated where it stands in the duality.

    ___________________

    Though in my personal experience, I consider hardcore, very Ti-dominant INTPs to be those archetypes acting as intellectual posers on the web, seemingly nothing else on their lives that is going for them, while the mature ENTPs have somehow evolved from that, having more character flexibilty, and thus haviung the less need to throw their Ti around.

    As much as possible I don't wanna define things based on how much a theory defines it.

  2. #32
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    I only believe in the arrangement of the first two (e.g., Ne and Ti or vice versa). I don't necessarily believe that Fe or Si should be the third or fourth, necessarily.
    same here, but i do believe that usually the fourth function for intp is Fe etc. or at least its more likely Fe than Se for example
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  3. #33

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    Cypocalypse:

    "In tests, I do score as having a high Fi, near balanced with Ti, and I don't think my Si or Fe are stronger than my Fi, so that already puts the arrangement theory in question. "

    It is COMPLETELY possible for your Fi to be stronger than your Fe and Si. I am very certain that it is the same case for me. I don't understand why that puts the arrangement theory in question. To put it in simple logic-

    Suppose
    A > B > X > Z

    and

    C > X

    there is no contradiction here at all. A > B > X > Z still holds. In your case, it would be A > B > C > X > Z, where C represents your Fi.

    I think you might have misunderstood the concept, thinking perhaps that the 4 functions not mentioned (in your case, Fi, Ni, Te, Se) are absent altogether, or too weak to be considered. That's silly! ENTPs most certainly have Fi, Ni Te and Se- I would say these are our "regular" functions, functions that we can choose to develop if we wanted to. They are neither strengths nor weaknesses, and our likely usage of them is probably shaped by external factors rather than internal, depending on things like your family upbringing or your chosen profession.

    That said, even then the usage of functions to me is just a general guideline; an observable pattern rather than a fixed rule.

    Most of the INTPs I know seem to have inferior Fe and most of the ENTPs I know seem to have inferior Si. Amongst them, even those who have developed their supposed-inferior functions well often seem to prefer not to engage it if possible. This is of course, as you might be quick to point out, restricted to the limitations of my personal experience!

    But it provides the best working "basic framework/model of understanding" for me right now, so I use it quite liberally- though I am very open to looking at alternatives.

    What I mean, in essence, is that even if it were not completely established as hard fact, it provides the seemingly safest and most accurate hypothesis about a person's motivations. You might argue that it's best not to allow yourself to have preconceived notions about a person, but personally I think that's impossible so we might as well progress to the next best thing.

  4. #34
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    SUPER

    I'd say that there was a fair amount of ENTPs that are not the most sociable in the world. In normal language a fair proportion probably see themselves as introverted... ie prefering smaller social groups.

    In MBTI langauge however E means as Kat says pointed out energiesed by sharing and growing of ideas.

    There was a thread a while back about either NTs or ENTPs socialising, which it was aagreed by some that ENTPs can sometimes play up a larger audience/socail group by becoming a personification of themselves... actually someone who iritates themselves... but actualyl they are more comfortable in smaller mor eintimate groups which have less social pressure.

    I think NTs often suffer from social akwardness

  5. #35
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    I find it hard to measure my place in the I/E duality.

    Most of my friends consider me an extrovert but I find myself to be eccentric enough to be fully effective in my sociability. Or maybe I should consider sociability a totally different thing from I and E.

    I sometimes think that I may pretentiously consider myself E, but looking at my INTP acquaintances, they can be too weird or ill-mannered for me to compare myself with. Probably it's easier with the healthier INTP, but the stereotypical know-it-all, shizoid, forum posing INTPs, not really.

  6. #36
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    I find it hard to measure my place in the I/E duality.

    Most of my friends consider me an extrovert but I find myself to be eccentric enough to be fully effective in my sociability. Or maybe I should consider sociability a totally different thing from I and E.

    I sometimes think that I may pretentiously consider myself E, but looking at my INTP acquaintances, they can be too weird or ill-mannered for me to compare myself with. Probably it's easier with the healthier INTP, but the stereotypical know-it-all, shizoid, forum posing INTPs, not really.
    Have you also considered the possibility you may be a disgruntled INTJ?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #37
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'd say that there was a fair amount of ENTPs that are not the most sociable in the world. In normal language a fair proportion probably see themselves as introverted... ie prefering smaller social groups.

    In MBTI langauge however E means as Kat says pointed out energiesed by sharing and growing of ideas.

    There was a thread a while back about either NTs or ENTPs socialising, which it was aagreed by some that ENTPs can sometimes play up a larger audience/socail group by becoming a personification of themselves... actually someone who iritates themselves... but actualyl they are more comfortable in smaller mor eintimate groups which have less social pressure.

    I think NTs often suffer from social akwardness
    About smaller vs bigger groups... why not, but it depends.

    I'd say that when I have to speak in front of a large audience, the feeling is ambivalent: of course, there is awkwardness, more like a stage fright. But in the same time, once I get past these first moments of doubts, I feel more in touch with myself than ever: it just comes naturally shortly afterwards.

    ---

    The main issue with large audiences is rather their lack of response. And the ENTP mind thrive on dialogs, not on monologues. If we put our ideas "out of our head", and discuss them openly with anybody anywhere, it's because we enjoy to test them in front of an audience: it's the way we shape them, the way they take form.
    So a limited group of people might be more suitable for this task.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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