[NT] INTP vs INTJ - who is more manipulative?

[Little_Sticks]

I know an ENFJ and I find it offensive that my friend be compared to your cat.

I find it offensive that my cat be compared to your friend. He's so much better than that. <shakes a poop stick in the iconoclast's direction>

Fuck man, loosen up your asshole once in a while.

Why does that sound so sexual?

 

[ObliviousExistence]

INTPs are good at unknowingly manipulating themselves.

 

[EcK]

yeah... my point still holds

 

[Little_Sticks]

INTPs are good at unknowingly manipulating themselves.

You know too much. You must be eliminated. Resistance is futile; your super Ni and contingency plans will not save you.

 

[Cool]

I find it offensive that my cat be compared to your friend. He's so much better than that. <shakes a poop stick in the iconoclast's direction>


Why does that sound so sexual?

lol it's not suppose to sound sexual, it's just my way of telling someone to calm down.

 

[highlander]

Manipulative seems to carry a derogation connotation, which would contradict Isabel Myer's philosophy to describe types positively and in terms of their potential

Yes, I agree. I like the word persuasion better.

I'm for some strange reason reminded of my oldest daughter (ENFP) who, at three years old, when I was playing that I was being a monster said, "stop. i'm the boss of you." and then proceeded to order me around for the next fifteen minutes. I was horribly manipulated there. She absolutely got me to do what she wanted.

 

[ObliviousExistence]

I think the term I was looking for is, self-deception. INTPs are prone to self-deception

You know too much. You must be eliminated. Resistance is futile; your super Ni and contingency plans will not save you.

Dream on, nothing can touch me, your haphazard INTP mind is no match for my superiorly acute and organized Ni (whatever that means).

 

[tcda]

Regarding the points about if manipulation is derogatory or if INTP's or INTJ's are prone to manipulation:

I'm not at all prone to manipulation and obviosuly I see it as an undesirable trait. Violence is also an undesirable trait, so is lying. But sometimes you might have to fight someone, sometimes youmight have to tell a lie, and soemtimes you might have to manipulate someone towards a noble end. For an example what if you are forced to deny your true views because they can get you sacked by a despotic boss, but you still want to find allies so you can change things, so you are forced to subtly win their trust, but not out of Fe/Fi, but because of your Ti/Te plans - which can still be noble in the wider sense.

There are all sorts of scenarios which is why I don't want to derail the fundamental point with details.

Finally the reason I chose INTP/INTJ is because they are two types I'm most interested in with regards to this question, simple as that really.

Dream on, nothing can touch me, your haphazard INTP mind is no match for my superiorly acute and organized Ni (whatever that means).

Isn't Ni meant to be chaotic? :s

 

[Ozz]

Hell, that's how I figured my cat is an ENFJ as its very active (E), focused on living things (F) and definitely very consistent in its habits (J)!

How did you know your Cat is an N and not a S? For all we know, it could be an ESFJ!

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

That's wonderful, but none of this is telling me that you know what a function is.

I wasn't trying. LOLZ. I don't care about trying to prove my theories to the rest of the world necessarily. It seems like if you knew anything about Ni you would understand that. I learned that from Sim, I believe, an awesome functionite from whom I've learned a lot here; and I've learned a lot about function theory from Eric B, although it gets a little too detail oriented for my personality.

Yes, I agree. I like the word persuasion better.

I'm for some strange reason reminded of my oldest daughter (ENFP) who, at three years old, when I was playing that I was being a monster said, "stop. i'm the boss of you." and then proceeded to order me around for the next fifteen minutes. I was horribly manipulated there. She absolutely got me to do what she wanted.

Perhaps she's enfj?

 

[HomerSoprano]

INTJ. Bullying type of manipulation

INTP. Self victimisation type of manipulation

 

[highlander]

Perhaps she's enfj?

That's what I thought but could never be sure on J/P. She ultimately tested as ENFP and I think it's probably right.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

That's what I thought but could never be sure on J/P. She ultimately tested as ENFP and I think it's probably right.

Fe/Ni is way different than Ne/Fi, I wouldn't think one would get too confused on ENFJ/ENFP as much as entp/enfp, infp/enfp or infj/enfj, entj/enfj.

 

[BlueGray]

SolitaryWalker seems to be having fun.

Interesting how manipulation makes everybody think manipulation of people.

I wish I could manipulate more stuff. I'd be shocked if any INTP doesn't want to be able to manipulate things. Such ability serves as an indicator of complete understanding. I don't really see what this question accomplishes though. There is no answer as the terms could mean any number of things.

 

[tcda]

SolitaryWalker seems to be having fun.

Interesting how manipulation makes everybody think manipulation of people.

I wish I could manipulate more stuff. I'd be shocked if any INTP doesn't want to be able to manipulate things. Such ability serves as an indicator of complete understanding. I don't really see what this question accomplishes though. There is no answer as the terms could mean any number of things.

I don't understand why people seem to be so against this particular question being asked. :s Why would it be expected to accomplish any more or any less than any other question about the behaviour of MBTI types? I had my reasons for asking, and nobody is forced to answer/read.

Regarding "manipulation", I just meant it in the sense of indirectly getting people to do/tell you what you want them to, basically.

 

[Litvyak]

INTJ. Bullying type of manipulation

INTP. Self victimisation type of manipulation

Exactly.

 

[highlander]

Fe/Ni is way different than Ne/Fi, I wouldn't think one would get too confused on ENFJ/ENFP as much as entp/enfp, infp/enfp or infj/enfj, entj/enfj.

Good point. Until I came onto this forum, I was not too well versed in the introverted vs. extraverted functions. I sort of lumped them together. I'm still learning this.

 

[BlueGray]

By that do you mean essentially who gets along better with people, which is the better social type?

The problem I see with the question is that it isn't any specific behavior. It's many, many behaviors all falling into one category. It's like which type is happier, or which type is smarter. The words cover many things for any one person and cover vast amounts more once different people's viewpoints have been introduced.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

INTJ. Bullying type of manipulation

INTP. Self victimisation type of manipulation

Exactly.

I disagree. I've never met a 'bully' INTJ. They're too wrapped up in their heads to care about others enough to bully them. If someone disagrees with their ideals, most INTJs will just (overconfidently and often unjustly) write them off as idiots and go about their way. They have the 'I've presented you with the facts and if you're too stupid to understand what they add up to, then you aren't worth my time' attitude.

INTPs that I've met are only ever concerned with this frustrating idea that they CAN'T possibly know everything and so they learn, and learn, and learn, but it doesn't make them any happier... it only frustrates them more. In this they may feel 'cheated' or 'victimized' by an unfair world... but then they'll say 'Who am I do define fair or unfair?' and they go back to being content with just learning until the whole thing bubbles up again.

Neither of them are particularly worried about others and manipulating them into doing something or saying something just to satisfy a selfish goal. They're too caught up in their own projects and thoughts. Not that they're ABOVE doing this when it is needed... but they'll justify it with a noble/idealistic thought of 'This is better in the big picture' and so they are willing to sacrifice the 'pawns'. They will always justify it (as any good criminal would), and probably never see it as manipulation per se.

Having said all that... I still think you guys are way off base. If you want to find underlying motives for behaviour, MBTI is probably not your best bet. Enneagram types would (in my opinion) have a lot more to do with this subject.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

It seems like if you knew anything about Ni you would understand that..:

I happen to know quite a bit about Ni.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/3412-intj-profile.html

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/4629-infj-profile.html


The fact that this is your type tells me little about your personality or what you know or what you've learned.