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Thread: NTPs: Leaders?

  1. #81
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    It's a beautiful thing to see 2 fellow NT's "arguing nicely" in regards to which types make better leaders.

    On a serious note, and using Wind-up Rex's terminology here, what do you guys think/observe happens to the "innovators" who are employed in organizations that don't necessarily need/want innovators? Do good managers/entrepreneurs look for innovators in their orgs and then make good use of them? Or do innovators often leave their talents untapped in these orgs?

    For instance, in academia, it often goes something like this:

    ENTJ's are running the show. These ENTJ's are what I would call "half entrepreneur/half manager" = intrapreneurs. They are entrepreneurs with vision but who are working within a large org. I have also seen several ENTP's and some INTJ's as well. ENTP's lean toward the innovator side. INTJ's lean toward the manager side, but both have some entrepreneur in them. If they don't, they shouldn't be leading.

    Working for the administrators (at least in the sciences), you have mainly have ENTP's, INTJ's, and INTP's. INTJ's are happy because infrastructure and organization is provided/supplied/inherent which they can use to "be scientists" and work on their stuff. That's all they seem to want. ENTP's are partially satisfied because they get to interact with intellectual people, have good discussions, collaborate, explore many different things, and do *some degree* of innovating. But, they also get frustrated because they can't be full innovators. Anything they produce is "under the umbrella" of the university", within the rules, policies, procedures, they have to get permission, they have to disclose their science, blah, blah, blah.

    INTP's, on the other hand, seem to become very cycnical and frustrated by all of this. Just like ENTP's they tire of the policies, structure, rules. At heart, they just want to be left alone to produce their own stuff on their own time, at their own whim. Without much interference from anyone about anything. And so by the time the INTP deals with all that other "jumping through hoops" and "playing the game" and "meetings", in many cases you've lost him. He's checked out at that point because you've taken his innovation away. You've basically put him in a jail cell and said, "OK, now be an innovator!!!" At least the ENTP seems to get a lot of enjoyment from all of his co-workers and the discussion. The INTP to a much lesser degree.

    So, how does any organization make best use (practical, real world use) out of their innovators? Most orgs are going to have a few of them floating around in their ranks. Many of which are probably frustrated.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


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  2. #82
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    BTW, I realize my post comes off as an INTP pity party. There are happy, productive INTP's in organizations and in academia. And, ultimately, if a person isn't happy in an organization, he should look to make a change and do something that plays to his strengths. What I'm curious about, though, is what happens to the true innovators that are employed by large organizations? Talent goes to waste to a large degree? The innovators are unhappy? Do good managers even look for these people or know that they have them on their payroll?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #83
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    ^ Whereas an ENTJ, for example, thrives in that environment and role. I think ESTP, ENTP and ENFP are more like... Independent and want action. Diversity. Don't want to control others all that much, more like they (we) don't want to be controlled.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #84
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    It's a beautiful thing to see 2 fellow NT's "arguing nicely" in regards to which types make better leaders.
    I have a dream that one day a leader will not be judged by the last letter of their MBTI type, but the tacit understanding that Sensors and Feelers should never be in charge of anything.

    I HAVE A DREAM TODAY!
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #85
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    So, how does any organization make best use (practical, real world use) out of their innovators? Most orgs are going to have a few of them floating around in their ranks. Many of which are probably frustrated.
    I hear both Google and Pixar create an environment which gives their innovators near-complete freedom and a space that allows them to innovate and create properly. The results are clear as both have consistently fantastic products.
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  6. #86
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Hm old thread...

    My most recent thoughts...

    Entps should focus on startups and innovation but don't do well in a place where the result is a group accomplishing a set of tangible goals . They become wrapped up in political messes and power struggles and hurt other people. They make kick ass consultants though . I figure they should move on at the point that a company is shifting from startup to corporation.

    Enfps are sloppy but not ineffective leaders, like emo estjs. I have seen a couple of good esfp male leaders as well.

  7. #87
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hm old thread...

    My most recent thoughts...

    Entps should focus on startups and innovation but don't do well in a place where the result is a group accomplishing a set of tangible goals . They become wrapped up in political messes and power struggles and hurt other people. They make kick ass consultants though . I figure they should move on at the point that a company is shifting from startup to corporation.

    Enfps are sloppy but not ineffective leaders, like emo estjs. I have seen a couple of good esfp male leaders as well.
    For ENTPs who might not be ready for consulting and who honestly want to get along with everyone and do a good job, how would you recommend they stay out of political messes?

    Try harder to show appreciation to others, be softer and less terse with people, know when to back off, does that about cover it?

  8. #88
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    For ENTPs who might not be ready for consulting and who honestly want to get along with everyone and do a good job, how would you recommend they stay out of political messes?

    Try harder to show appreciation to others, be softer and less terse with people, know when to back off, does that about cover it?
    The above will work very well with FJs as you age, but will not help much with TJs or FPs.

    oddly, I'd suggest slightly different tactics.

    Split your auidiance. Be yourself with TPs and FJs. With TJs and FPs:

    Be direct, be straightforward. If your employees need feedback, give it very directly. Recognize that as your Fe grows stronger, your speech will become more indirect and polite, to the point of never actually saying that there is an issue. If people are unaware of a problem, they will never be able to fix the problem. FPs and TJs dont speak in terms of subtlity.

    Dont hide from situations which seem to be conflict ridden. Be aware that as you age you will project your own Fe onto others when under stress and this will lead you to judge FPs as being overly emotional or seemingly unpredictable and out of control. (Check out the book "Was that really me?". Naomi describes this really well in INTPs under stress.) Fe will lead you to being conflict averse or even disagreement averse. My favorite ENTP says that ENFPs make his stomach drop as we dont state things softly or gently, but rather bluntly and just lay it out there. FP stress distrubs ENTP "takkhenes" greatly. It is VERY unsettling for him, thus he will avoid them-rather than recognize the value they may bring to a project. Te problem solving will be very much in the open and may feel confrontational to you, when in reality, parties involved are typicaly pretty nuetral, if adament.

    If there is an issue discuss it openly and be willing to hear every person's perspective. Dont cower in the prescence of strong TJs...rather than looking friendly on the surface and seething with frustration underneath, assuming the TJ is being dismissive-directly state your case, provide evidence and explain why the TJ is wrong-too often ENTPs assume the TJ is a power hungry demon, rather than just being a blunt, direct TJ. TJs cant argue evidence-they just cant-thus with good evidence you win.

    Be aware not everyone is plotting against you and most people are not consciously wanting or seeking power. Some ENTPs under stress assume this about everyone around them. If you start to think people are plotting agsint you, take a few vacation days (unless they are ENTPs of course, LOL.)

    Recognize you may be hypersensitive to the way others use the pronoun "I". Sounds weird, but it's true. If you hear an FP or TJ say "I did this and then I solved that" in a meeting, they are not trying to grab fame or seek to be esteemed. Rather, the opposite-they are accepting accountability for tasks, then reporting on results of the task itself. "I" really means that "I" could totally get my ass reamed if I dont do this right and "I" recognize that fact by speaking up about what "I" am responsible for and the results of what "I" did.

    Realize you may be Te limited in the scope of your vision. ENTPs thus far, are sometimes lacking in seeing logistics. The end goal determines if you win or lose. Nothing else matters in a business. You may not be able to see a clear way to that end goal, so might spin your wheels with a number of potential Ti paths-brainstorm with an ENFP (NeTeFi)-they can help fill in the Te gaps and give you more data. You may at times have to take a blind jump here, as you might never find a clear Ti path that is precise enough.

    My apologies as I realize I have just done the "tell, tell, tell" thing and entps hate to be told what to do....much of this is advice I gave to my entp friend, man of masks, and he seemed to find use in it, even if just to build in as a model of how people work. Good luck, little clever kitten!

  9. #89
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    also-one last bit-develop your fe for real. The most beautiful entps I know dont simply use Fe as a tool to reach thier own objectives, but instead they really cant help but care and care deeply. Rather than isolate themselves from those who are seemingly different or disturbing, they fight with that entp shun reflex to try and embrace and understand others, even when stressed to the breaking point, by the differences. Beautiful entps eventually seem to take their Ti ideas and seem almost driven to implement them in a way that benefits the social structure of which they are a part-a well developed, connected Fe.

  10. #90
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    @Orobas

    Thanks again for putting so much thought into these awesome posts, they're very insightful, I really appreciate it.

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