User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 94

Thread: NTPs: Leaders?

  1. #71
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Who wants to follow me?
    <*crickets*>




  2. #72
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    2,739

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    <*crickets*>



    *eats the delicious crickets and quips about the high quantity of protein to be found in edible arthropods*

  3. #73
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,983

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    I'm asking if your doubts about Ps in leadership might be more about management instead of leadership, due to the NTP's weaknesses in dealing with organization and follow-up of many details, which management usually involves a lot of, but which leadership usually doesn't.
    Disclaimer--my response to this is a little difficult for me to articulate, and partially contradicts what I said earlier. Ok, let's go!

    First, my intuitive distinction between leadership vs management defines them in terms of their objectives.
    Leadership concerns the execution of a specific vision.
    Management concerns the execution of specific policy or set of policies.

    Second, there are recurring leadership styles that work together to propel an organization towards a particular goal. A simple model of this identifies three primary modes of leadership: Innovators, Entrepreneurs, and Managers.

    Innovators are dreamers. They imagine what could be, often in creative and brilliant ways. They can be very charismatic. But they get bored easily, and dive into new ideas and new visions easily and often, which can drive those around them stir crazy. They are not very good at building things (other than prototypes), and are not all that interested in financial viability. For innovators, the idea is everything.
    Entrepreneurs are implementers. They boldly convert ideas into reality, overcoming any obstacle that gets in their way. They build ideas and prototypes into successful businesses. Even in bad times, they are not interested in maintaining the status quo. They want change, they want growth, they want risk-taking. They may be a bit vague about how they define success, but they won’t stop until they get it. Then they get bored. For entrepreneurs, success is everything.
    Managers are trustees. They protect and maintain things, making sure the company’s sales, assets, and employees are not at risk. They create systems, policies and infrastructure to keep everything functioning smoothly and efficiently. They are not risk takers. Entrepreneurs leave when the managers take over. For managers, sustainability is everything.
    Third, in the course of an organization's life cycle leadership will engage in some aspect of each of these three modes while emphasizing one. There's a natural continuum between the purely visionary role of the Innovator, and the purely conservational role of the Managers.

    Ok, so I say all this to make the point that what usually comes to mind when you ask someone about leadership are "Entrepreneur" types, because they are the most common type of leaders. In this kind of role a Judging-type--especially an NTJ--will have an advantage as it plays to their natural strengths. The "Innovator" plays the crucial role of defining the vision executed by the Entrepreneur. This role plays more to the strengths of a Perceiving-type, specifically an NTP. Theoretically, these two types work together in order to satisfy the definition of leadership I provided in my first point.

    In practice, however, organizations led by Innovators are rare. The usual set-up is an Entrepreneur with one Big Idea that they manage to implement. Unless they've started their own company, the leadership positions available to an NTP are entrepreneurial roles that don't really play to their natural strengths. An outside observer may look at this situation, and assume it is true because NTPs are shitty leaders. But that's not precisely the case. What is more accurate is to say that opportunities for the style leadership most natural to the NTP are scarce to the point of non-existence in an established organization. Certain instances render this argument utter horseshit, a few examples are: an organization with an internal culture (like Apple) where creativity and vision are highly valued; or, NTPs who are able to work with what they got in order to be effective in traditional leadership roles.

    TL; DR: I think NTPs are better as idea people. Bow before the might of my original conclusion!
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  4. #74
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    @Wind-up Rex

    ^Those are great, and very informative, thanks!

    I would argue that NTPs can make great Innovators *and* Entrepreneurs, while NTJs can make great Entrepreneurs and Managers. Most other types probably are best as Managers. Which is good, because most companies need more Managers than the other two kinds of Leaders.

    Also, I think that traditional companies, once established, might only have Managers. However, leading edge companies will need to continually keep some Innovators and Entrepreneurs on board, rather than just to get the company started.

    Or maybe they just need to hire the Innovators and Entrepreneurs as management consultants regularly to keep ahead.

    What do you think?

  5. #75
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,983

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    @Wind-up Rex

    ^Those are great, and very informative, thanks!

    I would argue that NTPs can make great Innovators *and* Entrepreneurs, while NTJs can make great Entrepreneurs and Managers. Most other types probably are best as Managers. Which is good, because most companies need more Managers than the other two kinds of Leaders.
    Thanks

    Like I said, there's definitely a spectrum in terms of leadership styles with very few people getting to be purely one of any. I also agree with you that NTPs fall somewhere between Innovator---Entrepreneur, while NTJs usually fall more Entrepreneur---Manager. Having said that, I'll point out that there are few things on this planet more miserable than an NTJ in a purely managerial position. I despise red tape, and the idea of making a living as Lord of the Dispenser makes me sad.

    Also, I think that traditional companies, once established, might only have Managers. However, leading edge companies will need to continually keep some Innovators and Entrepreneurs on board, rather than just to get the company started.
    I agree with this as well. I think the type of organization, its maturity, and its internal culture will naturally play a role in the composition of its leadership. Nonetheless, on the balance there will always be more Entrepreneurs and Managers than there are Innovators. I think the scarcity of Innovators as leaders derives from the fact that 1) a lot of things have to line up in just the right way for them to be influential, and b) the vast majority of people just aren't suited to it. It leads to a kind of clustering effect, which is further emphasized by the fact that a driven visionary leader can simply make-up an environment that works for them if they can't find one, and fill it with people like themselves (think Silicone Valley).

    These things being the case, I'm inclined to say that if you're going to generalize, my initial point about J's being better suited to leadership positions that P's still stands in practice. This doesn't mean a NTP couldn't be a good leader, though.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #76
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Thanks

    Like I said, there's definitely a spectrum in terms of leadership styles with very few people getting to be purely one of any. I also agree with you that NTPs fall somewhere between Innovator---Entrepreneur, while NTJs usually fall more Entrepreneur---Manager. Having said that, I'll point out that there are few things on this planet more miserable than an NTJ in a purely managerial position. I despise red tape, and the idea of making a living as Lord of the Dispenser makes me sad.

    I agree with this as well. I think the type of organization, its maturity, and its internal culture will naturally play a role in the composition of its leadership. Nonetheless, on the balance there will always be more Entrepreneurs and Managers than there are Innovators. I think the scarcity of Innovators as leaders derives from the fact that 1) a lot of things have to line up in just the right way for them to be influential, and b) the vast majority of people just aren't suited to it. It leads to a kind of clustering effect, which is further emphasized by the fact that a driven visionary leader can simply make-up an environment that works for them if they can't find one, and fill it with people like themselves (think Silicone Valley).

    These things being the case, I'm inclined to say that if you're going to generalize, my initial point about J's being better suited to leadership positions that P's still stands in practice. This doesn't mean a NTP couldn't be a good leader, though.
    Buuuuuuuuut, I thought we just agreed NTPs make good Innovator and Entrepreneurial leaders!





    Just kidding, I think there is room for more Managers than Entrepreneurs or Innovators, which means room for more NTJs than NTPs. And yeah, NTPs can go off and start our own thing anyway.

  7. #77
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,983

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Buuuuuuuuut, I thought we just agreed NTPs make good Innovator and Entrepreneurial leaders!

    I agreed to the idea that an NTPs natural leadership style would fall somewhere between those two modes. I probably should have clarified I still feel they'll fall more on the Innovator side than the Entrepreneur side.

    Just kidding, I think there is room for more Managers than Entrepreneurs or Innovators, which means room for more NTJs than NTPs. And yeah, NTPs can go off and start our own thing anyway.
    Ya'll are the ones that brought us the IPod. I have to admit when you guys do it, you do it big.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #78
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I agreed to the idea that an NTPs natural leadership style would fall somewhere between those two modes. I probably should have clarified I still feel they'll fall more on the Innovator side than the Entrepreneur side.

    Ya'll are the ones that brought us the IPod. I have to admit when you guys do it, you do it big.
    OK OK, I guess I mostly agree with that.

  9. #79
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    853 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,983

    Default

    It's a very persuasive banana.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #80
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    It's true, you can't argue with the banana.

    This is the banana's response to that:

Similar Threads

  1. Business Owners, Leaders and Entrepreneurs are not all Evil
    By ygolo in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 09-07-2008, 05:18 PM
  2. People in Crowds Pick Leaders...just like Sheep.
    By heart in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 03-28-2008, 02:38 PM
  3. [NT] NTP relationships
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 01-01-2008, 05:55 PM
  4. [NT] NTP buffoonery
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 07-23-2007, 08:52 AM
  5. Any MBTI Workshop Leaders Out There?
    By ENFJ in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-19-2007, 04:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO