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Thread: NTPs: Leaders?

  1. #61
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    But honestly... I'm great in a crisis: when everybody is wigging out I'm normally pretty cool and effective.
    That's the only time it's challenging. Other times, it's easy, boring, and mundane. If there's a time crunch, on the other hand, then it's time to get creative (Ne) and to be super efficient, cutting out all unnecesary and useless steps (Ti). In a crisis, there's no time for jumping through hoops and all that nonsense. Just get it done. INTP dream.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  2. #62
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    That's the only time it's challenging. Other times, it's easy, boring, and mundane. If there's a time crunch, on the other hand, then it's time to get creative (Ne) and to be super efficient, cutting out all unnecesary and useless steps (Ti). In a crisis, there's no time for jumping through hoops and all that nonsense. Just get it done. INTP dream.
    Yep. When it comes to down to just getting it done its amazing how much less than usefull or simply useless stuff falls away. INTP dream indeed!
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  3. #63
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    The modern culture of military warfare favors J. If that's a coincidence or not is up for you to decide.
    It's not a coincidence. It is, however, unfortunate given that the nature of modern conflict better favors the strengths of perceiving-types.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Hahaha. *realizes he's been exposed*. No, I just mean a lot of J's wouldn't confess that a P could outperform them or be more productive for even 1 second.
    I have no problem admitting that there are areas where a P could outperform me. I just have doubts that the average P is better suited to leadership than the average J. Having said that, there are notable exceptions. Steve Jobs (ENTP) is one, JFK (ENFP) is another, and I've heard Bill Gates is actually a closet *gasp* INTP contrary to his reputation as the ENTJs ENTJ (the irony of that alone makes it worth believing ). These men are examples of capable visionaries with the aptitude, flexibility, and persistence to harness the best in those around them to make big ideas come true. There might be a better way to define great leadership, but I sure haven't heard it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    @Wind-up Rex

    Leadership or management? Why not leadership?

    Management, I agree. Leadership, I disagree, except that one would usually have to succeed as a manager first before proceeding to leadership, but that isn't always the case.

    Leadership with the ability to delegate mundane admin stuff would be where I think NTPs would shine.

  5. #65
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    @Wind-up Rex

    Leadership or management? Why not leadership?

    Management, I agree. Leadership, I disagree, except that one would usually have to succeed as a manager first before proceeding to leadership, but that isn't always the case.
    Sorry. I'm not quite sure who you're referring to here.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #66
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Leading.... I can do it. I've done it. Pretty relaxed style, brainstorm sift and enact after consensus pretty straight to process. Pressure from responsibility doesn't really scare me, but I don't usually go out of my way to become a leader, though it happens of its own accord at times.

  7. #67
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    It's possible to be skillful as a leader without having leadership as one's calling in life. However, when pursuit of that calling demands leadership, xNTPs can be extremely adept at it.

    Take William Tecumseh Sherman, a quintessential ENTP, for example. If I were to take a stab at his life's purpose, I would guess that it involved the continuation of his family's work in creating and building the United States. It most certainly was not leadership, as most clearly demonstrated by his eloquent refusal to run for president. However, when the Civil War and his responsibilities as a general demanded he take a leadership role lest the health of the nation come to calamity, he became a beloved leader whose insight burned the way to an expedited conclusion of the war, and turned the world upside down.

    The xNTP leader sets the leadership model which the xNTJ later refines and perfects. Keeping to the example of American generals, I can state with reasonable certainty that Patton (ENTJ) would more often than not defeat Sherman in a protracted campaign if both were given equal starting resources (e.g. 1880s tech). However, Patton only could do this because of his education in the very strategies that Sherman developed in the first place. Patton's genius came in taking the strategic insights that Sherman and others developed and executing them with tactical verve and perfection. However, this genius derived from his purpose, which he clearly stated was to be a soldier and leader of men.

  8. #68
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    It's not a coincidence. It is, however, unfortunate given that the nature of modern conflict better favors the strengths of perceiving-types.

    I have no problem admitting that there are areas where a P could outperform me. I just have doubts that the average P is better suited to leadership than the average J. Having said that, there are notable exceptions. Steve Jobs (ENTP) is one, JFK (ENFP) is another, and I've heard Bill Gates is actually a closet *gasp* INTP contrary to his reputation as the ENTJs ENTJ (the irony of that alone makes it worth believing ). These men are examples of capable visionaries with the aptitude, flexibility, and persistence to harness the best in those around them to make big ideas come true. There might be a better way to define great leadership, but I sure haven't heard it.
    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    @Wind-up Rex

    Leadership or management? Why not leadership?

    Management, I agree. Leadership, I disagree, except that one would usually have to succeed as a manager first before proceeding to leadership, but that isn't always the case.

    Leadership with the ability to delegate mundane admin stuff would be where I think NTPs would shine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    Sorry. I'm not quite sure who you're referring to here.
    Sorry, I should have bolded the portion of your quote above the first time.

    I'm asking if your doubts about Ps in leadership might be more about management instead of leadership, due to the NTP's weaknesses in dealing with organization and follow-up of many details, which management usually involves a lot of, but which leadership usually doesn't.

    The distinction can be confusing, though, because most leadership roles also involve management and vice versa. To me, the distinction is that leadership involves leading people, mentoring, and making strategic decisions, while management is more about scheduling, tracking, coordinating people and making sure they're doing their jobs, and follow-up.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    Leading.... I can do it. I've done it. Pretty relaxed style, brainstorm sift and enact after consensus pretty straight to process. Pressure from responsibility doesn't really scare me, but I don't usually go out of my way to become a leader, though it happens of its own accord at times.
    That pretty much describes me, too. I don't care about power, but will step up as appropriate, as I have in the past.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's possible to be skillful as a leader without having leadership as one's calling in life. However, when pursuit of that calling demands leadership, xNTPs can be extremely adept at it.

    Take William Tecumseh Sherman, a quintessential ENTP, for example. If I were to take a stab at his life's purpose, I would guess that it involved the continuation of his family's work in creating and building the United States. It most certainly was not leadership, as most clearly demonstrated by his eloquent refusal to run for president. However, when the Civil War and his responsibilities as a general demanded he take a leadership role lest the health of the nation come to calamity, he became a beloved leader whose insight burned the way to an expedited conclusion of the war, and turned the world upside down.

    The xNTP leader sets the leadership model which the xNTJ later refines and perfects. Keeping to the example of American generals, I can state with reasonable certainty that Patton (ENTJ) would more often than not defeat Sherman in a protracted campaign if both were given equal starting resources (e.g. 1880s tech). However, Patton only could do this because of his education in the very strategies that Sherman developed in the first place. Patton's genius came in taking the strategic insights that Sherman and others developed and executing them with tactical verve and perfection. However, this genius derived from his purpose, which he clearly stated was to be a soldier and leader of men.
    That's a great story, and inspiring, thanks!

  9. #69
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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  10. #70
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Personally, I find some of the methods used by NTPs to be very odd...
    But I definitely understand the way some works.
    I know quite a few. None work in a steady pace, they all kind of sit around recuperating and then spring into action and get things done very fast.
    It works really well, and they can handle all sorts of weird crisis scenarios awfully good.
    I value that highly, and I don't nag about stuff like that. It's even quite a pleasant way of working, one which I mimic when around NTPs.

    I don't believe in NTP upper management at all, though.

    1. Not following the procedures of society, thus breaking laws and earning bad reputation.
    2. Being too democratic is bad in a company. Listen to people, but don't let them decide for you. Too many cooks makes a toxic effing soup.
    3. Organizations don't work well if they're not organized. The leader roll is a lot about organizing and a P in the mix is peeing in the mix.
    4. NTPs are just that. Individualists. They are awesome on their own or holding up a tiny group of highly autonomous workers, where leadership is only symbolical.

    NTPs fill a huge role already, they don't fit into the leader role though.
    Besides, who the hell wants to be a figurehead?
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    That's the only time it's challenging. Other times, it's easy, boring, and mundane. If there's a time crunch, on the other hand, then it's time to get creative (Ne) and to be super efficient, cutting out all unnecesary and useless steps (Ti). In a crisis, there's no time for jumping through hoops and all that nonsense. Just get it done. INTP dream.
    I'm like this, too. I work best under pressure, but I can't keep up the supersonic pace on a consistent basis.

    YLJ, I think NTPs can make good leaders if they delegate most of the mundane stuff that they hate and suck at. However, I agree that they at least have to be organized. I think they also have to have fairly well-developed Fe. It is easier for an NTP to be organized if they are not weighed down with a lot of stuff they (we) find uninteresting.

    When I'm weighed down with mundane tasks for too long, I feel like I wanna die.

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