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Thread: NTPs: Leaders?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Be aware not everyone is plotting against you and most people are not consciously wanting or seeking power.
    I am not sure I am understanding this.

    Based on observations of other ENTPs and myself I'd say you are correct regarding a 3d Fe here (Puera). But I have observed and verified my observations with others that most people are indeed seeking something (might not be power) and out to get me if that'll help them.

    I know you know this. Can you then please clarify what exactly you meant?

  2. #92
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    @Orobas

    Thanks again for putting so much thought into these awesome posts, they're very insightful, I really appreciate it.
    No problem little tiger! I must admit some of the observations came from frustrating and being frustrated by ENTPs. My best friend is an entp and we have spent hundreds of hours argueing about functional dynamics across the Ti-Fe/Fi-Te divide.

    Also-for every single suggestion I made for ENTPs, there is a symmetric suggestion that ENFPs should listen to and learn from when we communicate with TPs or FJs. This road goes both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I am not sure I am understanding this.

    Based on observations of other ENTPs and myself I'd say you are correct regarding a 3d Fe here (Puera). But I have observed and verified my observations with others that most people are indeed seeking something (might not be power) and out to get me if that'll help them.

    I know you know this. Can you then please clarify what exactly you meant?
    There are several layers at how one could look at this question. My apologies, LOL, my "exact" gene is somewhat defective as Ti is my trickster...

    Yes, I agree with you, every person wants something. An ENFP may want novelty (Ne) or they may want inner emotional/value calmness (Fi). Thus their external actions will be such to satisfy those aims. TPs are often highly competitive and want to either win (Ti?) or be recognized (Fe?) by their peers? Thus they will act to achieve those goals. These are examples stated in cognitive terms, but the enneatypes also are neat in how they define primary motivators, so just treat these as limited examples...there are many ways to describe human behavior.

    Now, the second half of your question-will other people ALWAYS try and take you out to satisfy thier own desires/goals? This depends on how we define "take you out". As an example consider the avarage NFP. An NFP will tend (mostly ) to avoid seeking to delibrately harm others. This is because it triggers a nasty internal backlash of emotional pain and guilt inside of us, as we see you hurt. We are biologically designed to not want to hurt others as it hurts us.

    So you likely wont get "taken out" the way another TP of FJ would take you out via deliberate plotting and planning or social manipulation. In fact I often find myself sacrificing my own career chances to help my entps get ahead of me at work *faceplant* because it makes me happy to see them happy....

    As an aside-I see this train of thought and assumption of worst case scenerio and plotting/planning in NTPs and in NFJs. Once an INFJ explained it to me. Basically my actions seem to follow no logical Ti course (since I dont use Ti as an internal compass). Thus my actions and ideas seem utter inexplicable-(since the Ti user doesnt see my Fi compass.) Since my actions defy explanation, their best conclusion is that I am crazy (NTPs) or I am plotting evil deeds (NFJs). I use myself as an example of course, to exemplify a larger trend.

    Now-would an NFP "take you out" inadvertantly....possibly through sheer obliviousness and plowing through a nice Ti/Fe plan laid out with out silly Te hammer. They might also harshly judge you, thus justify their own negative actions towards you based upon those inapplicable Fi judgements and exclude you from social connectivity...a form of taking you out, since your mode of action will likely be Fe based....I suspcet there are other ways as well...

    Thanks for digging a bit on that point as these are interesting avenues to explore!

  3. #93
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    @Orobas

    EDIT: I think this might sound offensive but this is not the goal - I am trying to be as honest and open as possible even if this might sound bad. Please have this in mind when reading - I don't know how to edit and keep the original meaning and I am not in the business of sacrificing knowledge for making people feel good (especially on a forum).

    To my experience Fi is kind of out of touch with reality (just like Ti) but unlike Ti it seems to lack any desire to achieve objectivity and admit the validity of anything outside of it. So far I have not found a way to connect in a meaningful way with Fi users, especially with ENFPs. I have had problems with all ENFPs I have encountered and bearing in mind how common your type is, it seems very counter productive for a future NTP leader to not be able to relate to you.

    INFPs are less about pushing their view onto the world, Fi with Se is more down-to-earth and manageable. ENFPs though are quick to judge, do not accept the validity of another's opinion (which to me is actually appaling in a personal way because I believe everybody has the right to be different) and sometimes seek to silence and suppress what Ti stands for. And they judge. And I absolutely hate being judged - judging people is so wrong on so many levels. And that is before mentioning the Fi vs. Fe (Fi seems terribly egoistic).

    Can you suggest anything to help people understand, manage and manipulate ENFPs into being less of what I described above? So far the only thing I have found to work is to stay away from this type but people don't wear their type on the forehead.

    Also, if you want to you can tell the stories about the ENTPs with the well developed and integrated Fe you talked about. I don't know how Ti and Fe can work together without much conflict as Fe can be rather oppressive unles freedom of thought is a value (and often it is not).



    Are you an HR professional?

    http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent...yond%20ISTJ%22

    http://www.amazon.com/Character-Orga.../dp/0891060529

    The NFP Strategic Leader

    Do you think an organizational type can be inferred from its recruitment advertising or there are too many factors there?

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    I'm working with a particularly difficult ENTJ client right now. She's micromanaging EVERY. LITTLE. THING. And if we're not mind-readers or if we deviate even slightly from her diva-ish, outlandish requests, she spends a half hour bitching on the phone - what a waste of time.

    (If you're self-employed, your clients ARE your bosses...at least temporarily.)

    I'll suck it up and deal with her now, but no way am I going to chase her down for any repeat projects or upgrades. She can go get hit by a bus.
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