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  1. #21
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Perhaps looking at the tertiary and inferior functions of E/INTJ could impart some clarity.

    What do you feel you are weakest in? Se (INTJ) or Fi(ENTJ)?
    Yeah, The Tertiary Function is the easiest way to determine if you're introverted or extraverted. e.g. I think ITJs tend to feel sorry for themselves when they lack confidence (Tertiary-Fi), whereas ETJs become louder and more asshole-ish when they lack confidence (Tertiary-Ne/Se).
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  2. #22
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    maybe you're just pretty even on the E/I axis? Does it really matter which side of the line? Surely it's a difference of degree rather than of kind (unless we get into all the somewhat mystical sounding obsessions about "function order" which while very interesting, I ultimately find to have little application in reality).

    I had a lot of doubt about my MBTI, and then I realized, that ultimately it was just insecurity due to my life circumstance that was driving me to seek some kind of "answer" in MBTI. But really the answer is in looking at your own strenghts and weaknesses broadly . For example I'm good at arguing a point, at imagination and grasping concepts, and I'm bad at being sensitive. Whether it's "Ni" or "ne", or "Ti" or "Te", who gives a fuck? They are differences of degree not of kind as I said, if you look at the descriptions, we all do all those things and they overlap.

    In your case if you have strong intuition and thinking, why is it so important to know which one is "dominant". XNTJ seems like a fine description, you're neither a withdrawn stereotype, nor some cavalier person with no ability for reserve and introspection. Drawing some line at the 50% point which then supposedly predefines a whole load of other shit, seems unnecessarry.

    I hope that offered some help anyway. If it didn't, I ask to be excused, it was meant in a helpful spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It's always hard to tell E/I for me, especially if the person leads with any perceiving function or an introverted judging one (if you believe in function order). It's also hard to tell without meeting the person.

    People, including myself, always say that extroversion has nothing to do with people but with external stimuli, but it's hard for me to imagine even introverts not using external stimuli. Everything comes from external stimuli. So who knows?

    I usually tell the difference between ENTJ and INTJ on their personality, if it reminds me of someone I know. It's not foolproof, but it works out for the most part. So considering that, I can see you as an ENTJ based on the types of threads you start (that have to deal with excessive classification). However I've always thought of you as more of an INTJ because I see a lot of Ni, and you are less forceful in the way you communicate. So without meeting you in person, it's almost impossible for me to tell, but I'm guessing INTJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Perhaps looking at the tertiary and inferior functions of E/INTJ could impart some clarity.

    What do you feel you are weakest in? Se (INTJ) or Fi(ENTJ)?
    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Yeah, The Tertiary Function is the easiest way to determine if you're introverted or extraverted. e.g. I think ITJs tend to feel sorry for themselves when they lack confidence (Tertiary-Fi), whereas ETJs become louder and more asshole-ish when they lack confidence (Tertiary-Ne/Se).


    Did you guys read post 5 ? (just curious)



    Right now am totally INTJ. However what I am wondering about is this "artificial" outcome.

  3. #23
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    If you are INTJ you will have a better chance at snagging those ENFPs.

    I wonder too about "artificial" outcomes to personality types. I was just talking about this the other day, things that happened as a kid that made me more "feely" than I might have been.

  4. #24
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    If you are INTJ you will have a better chance at snagging those ENFPs.

    I wonder too about "artificial" outcomes to personality types. I was just talking about this the other day, things that happened as a kid that made me more "feely" than I might have been.
    I think that I had the other way around, My Fi is weaker than it should be. That is why my Se is stronger. (or I simply have a wrong picture abou myself)

  5. #25
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    No the can calculate. However I doubt that a P would force planning and structure on his parents for years. Plus I was PMing with a number of Ps on this site and there were very obvious differences between us in P/J area.







    I know.

    But there is something you don't know.


    (I will explain when I have the time)
    I'd like to know what we don't know yet, please?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #26
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    I always thought myself to be introverted. My bluntness can often turn people away. My arrogance, in my mind, places me above others. I feel generally unsympathetic toward how people feel.

    That being said, every test I take labels me an extrovert. I enjoy attention, and discussion. No concept concerns me more than complete isolation and solitude. I find trouble focusing when I'm by myself. I feel generally unenergetic when left to myself. When I discuss with others, when I collaborate, when I [strike]teach[/strike]pontificate, I get a rush of energy. My mind works faster and better with the pressure of discussing with another person. I've always been one that performs best under pressure. Talking with other people gives me a rush of importance, which gives me a rush of energy. In the spotlight, I feel enthused and energetic. I feel alive.

    In recent months I find myself increasingly more isolated in my personal life. At this time, I have no friends that live nearby. I don't know how to meet people - they've always just been there. I wonder if this points to me being an introvert. I don't know. I do miss having a social life. It's an almost crippling experience and I wonder if I may be losing my mind.
    I'll be your friend. Where do you live?
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  7. #27
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I waned to post this as separated thread but but I think that it would be better that I just use it as a argument in this thread.

    I know that the post is big but I had to make my point.
    So this is not a rant it is just a list of fact that are making the biggest problem of my life. Which is that I live in the Banana republic known as Croatia. I mean foreigners usually don't believe when you are talling them what is written in this post.



    So to be clear this is the real reason why I call myself Antisocial and how I became this way.




    The entire bailout thing that is happening today in the world is nothing new to me. We have major bailouts here for 15 years now.

    For example shipyards are obsolete and are unable to produce ships of first class. Instead they can only produce some cheap low quality ships. However since our metal industry went bust we have to import steel and other materials to produce ships. What means there is not way that we can produce anything that can be really worthy on a global market. Especially since the development of Far east and their cheap industry in the last years. However the goverment claims that it is giving the money to the shipyards so that a people don't lose their jobs.
    But if you calculate how much money they have given it is obvious that each worker would a millionare by now in the case that they have just given them the money and sold infrastructure at start. But the best part is that the government is borrowing money so that it can bailout the shipyards.


    While general public appoves this. So it is hard to fight this. (long story)



    Another thing is that the state will help you to rise crops with addiational funding. However they give funding not by amout of product but by surface of the land. So some people have realized that it s better not to do anything and just take the money for the size of their field. After all this is this most profitable choice.


    Another problem: The government is building roads togather with private companies. But they accidently manage to lost about 2 billion hrk. (about 400 million dollar) in the process. I mean that money ended in someones pocket and it did not used for construction of roads. But best thing is that the budget of the country is about 100 billion. What means that they managed to "misplacel" 2% of budget in a single move.


    Also almost everybody is a fan of sports here. So local authorities are spending money on soccer clubs instead on damadged roofs of hospitals and kindergardens. While the repairs will just cost more and more after a every single day. But the best part is that stuff like this can get you relected here.
    I mean the goverment/authority is bailing out private sport clubs with public money and people support this since they like the clubs that much. (any comment is unnecessary)


    This were just some example the actually list if nonsense is much longer.



    Education
    The entire education system is purely based on learning the facts. I mean you have to spend few hours every day just learning facts. What would not be that bad if you can actually apply those facts somewhere. I mean you are learning so much facts that after a month you have already forgotten 80%.
    Even SJ forget most of it since you simply can't remember all of that.
    What means that Ns have it even worse. Since typical N usually don't have the time span and concentration needed to match the needs of a education system. (unless they trully overforce it). I met a number of Ns that simply lost interest for education because of this. (and none of them are stupid)
    Also every class is held only once a week, sometimes even once in two weeks so if you are a typical N you will probably forget most of it by the next class unless you invest alot of effort. Plus you simply can't make that many connections if so much time has passed.



    For example I am a college student. But every year I get only about 2 hours of the "field" experiance. So as I INTJ is simply don't consider myself to be an expert based on this. I know plenty of theory but besides that I am good for nothing. But this applys to almost all student in the country this is not just my problem.


    And what is even dumber is that in most cases tries try to screw you up while you are a student. Since here education is mostly free so the system often thinks that you should fight for your education. For example they are giving you courses that don't serve anything just so that that you prove that you have the willpower to study. In my life a have gone through a number of them and I don't see the point. Many things I have learned there I have never used anywhere else after I have passed the exam. (not even once)
    For example over here if you decide to become of chef you will need to study mathematics through out all 3 years. (but this is highschool example)

    I mean the dropout rates from college can go as high as 75% for some generations. Plus you can't escapre those stupid courses since you are not choosing anything (like in the US). You just get a list of exams you have to pass and that is it.





    One of the main reasons why all of this is the case is because people tend not to get a job for which they are educated. For example you can finnish the economy and end up as artist in some small company.

    I know one ISTP that is a car mechanic that could not find a job because they wanted someone with college. I mean the company prefered to get a total rooky and teach them a job simply because this has a paper that he is "smart" instead of taking a person that has 4 years of studying the subject. What is apsurd.

    There were even cases of doctors without diplomas.




    Also I had a number of fights with my parents who claim that people should be allowed to do what they want to do. While I claim this is sick and inefficient. I can even name how many FP vs. TJ conflict I had with my parents.


    I mean why should I / someone bother to teach someone x subject if the person will find a y job instead of x job ? Plus one other reason why professors are often uncopreative is because those who finish college often end up as bureaucrats in the machinery of the government. Which is too large. (8 percent of the population)


    The thing is that they are making it hard on student just so that they would have a easier time preventing the growth of the governmet. Or there is no conspiracy and everything is just pure inefficiancy.
    I mean I have heard a professor while he was bragging that now only 60% of students fails from a first while that number was 80% before he came to that position. I mean people simply lose interest when entire exam comes down to that you have to learn fact for a few week in advance and then you get 5 questions and if you manage recall good and if not you fail. I mean the gambling factor is simply too large for my taste.


    And the most bizzare thing is that education is funded with taxpayers money so the entire system is technically 0% efficient. Plus it is ilogical for the most part.



    Justice system.
    I am sorry but I can't seriously. On 4.5 million people we have about 1 200 000 unsolved cases. (data from 2008)

    Also there was this one guy that made same favours to some people in the government (long story) and he went from a bar in a suburb to having a 173 companies in a about 3-4 years ( but almost all companies went bankrupt soon after he became the owner) . However the guy still is not convicted of anything actually. (even if about 15 years has passed)


    Also as jails are full and country is half bankrupt they often send prisoners out on a weekend. But they must report back in monday morning. So it happened more than once that a prisoner killed someone while he was enjoying his "free time". (but the overall crime rate is fairly low)


    Or city planners are stupid enough that place a citys water supply pumps into the citys industrial zone and then they wonder why water ism polluted. Or perhaps they have build an industrial zone around water pumps. (I am not sure which came first)


    Also over here you can build almsot wherever you want. In this country there are entire settlements of 200+ houses that were bult illegally, On the paper they should not be there but they are there. Since no one was controling anything and now no one wants to do anything because there are votes at stake.



    What brings us one more capital nonsense. Which makes entire country undemocratic. The country is divided into regions. However each region is choosing the same amount of people. What mean that a 100 000 people from mountain region have the same voting power as 1 000 000 people in the capital. I am trully hoping that I have accidently misunderstood something but I simply can find the hole. Even if I would really like to find one.




    Also you don't vote for the people but for a party. Here is how is works :Lets say that a region is choosing 10 people. So every party offers 10 candidates and the one that winns 30% of the votes will get its top three candiates into the parlament. etc. What opens an entire new level of nonsense. (but that is long story)

    I could go on but this is enough for me to make a point.




    Basicly I don't see what else I could have done except turning antisocial. Whether I am ENTJ or INTJ beneath the skin.
    However the odds are that I would probably turn to the "sex, drugs and RnR" philosophy in the case if I were an ENTJ.

  8. #28
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Hope it ok to be an INTJ and 8 because that is what I am. As far as what type you are, does everyone have to fit one of the standard categories? It has always seemed to me that there are people that somehow don't. It is not proven this works or makes sense for all people. With regards to Ni and Te being so close, when I was younger it seemed that Ni was not well understood or appreciated by others in earlier formative years in a conformist culture and I recall emphasizing other functions that appeared to be more socially acceptable. Not sure if it makes any sense, but that is what I think.

  9. #29
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Hope it ok to be an INTJ and 8 because that is what I am. As far as what type you are, does everyone have to fit one of the standard categories? It has always seemed to me that there are people that somehow don't. It is not proven this works or makes sense for all people. With regards to Ni and Te being so close, when I was younger it seemed that Ni was not well understood or appreciated by others in earlier formative years in a conformist culture and I recall emphasizing other functions that appeared to be more socially acceptable. Not sure if it makes any sense, but that is what I think.

    Don't worry I am INTJ and a quite expressed one. However what I am actually wondering about is how much of my corrent personality is natural and how much it is a byproduct of a bad environemnt.

  10. #30
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Let me see if I can sum this up:

    You're wondering if you might be an ENTJ instead of an INTJ, because you grew up in an environment where your natural behaviour was discouraged or dismissed, and that you were more "sociable" as a child than you are now. Did I get the gist of it?

    (I don't mean to dismiss all of the information you've given, I just want to get to the heart of this and wrap my head around it )
    Hello

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