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  1. #131
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Technically speaking the population ought to be evenly represented trhoguh out management teirs.
    says who? why does the population % at large have to dictate everything in society these days? Everytime I hear "xyz racial/social/geographic/educationlevel/gender etc is under represented in wtf profession/success/test scores/income etc" I have to ask:

    WHY? why should the a priori form of statistics dominate the observance form of statistics? Why cant xyz group be under represented in wfc, while overrepresented in tyg??? Does every profession, school, test score, etc have to be a mini microcosm of statistical proportion? Why are people so against accepting differences in desires, cultures and priorities?

    Yes, there are mean angry old white men who would use what I just said to keep certain types/race/culture/gender down. However, thats not inherently part of what i've revealed. You can still believe in improving peoples abilities and not putting up a glass ceiling WHILE accepting that the population and microcosms have NO REAL REASON that they must correspond.

    so I call bullshit that board rooms represent the exact same proportion of the population. The old battle ground was, liberal = humans have no talents or unchangeable human nature vs conservative = humans are determined by the human nature that no one can overcome. I think its a childish debate to take either side.

  2. #132
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Because so far no one on these forums has actually produce reliable evidence to prove that any specific MBTI excells above and beyond in income.... there are a lot of crap research with bad sampling and the MOST APPAULING misreading of the data... there is a whole thread on cleaverness - which is simply full of misinterpretation.

    In reality, at senior level in big firms it doens't seem to skew a huge amount from what I can see for a rep population.... slightly lower SJ, but not huge... But there is no evidence of that...

    The most we manage to squeeze out the last set of data someone posted a link too, is that N types were likely to be more gifted, but it would need to be statistically proven.

    So please, if you can find data to suggest that there will be a non representative spread of MBTI across different income band, which is reliable and doens't misreport the data, then we may have something to talk about, but until then I think it's plausable to think it's MBTI bull shit...

    (I do think there will be a small skew in reality but not massive).

    Ok 55% Normal pop of the UK is SJ (and I'm talking from memory so dont' quote me)....

    At average income one would expect a similar proportion of SJ's

    At senior levels ditto...55%.... there is nothing been produced to suggest MBTI skews income... nothing that has reliability/properly reported
    I would suggest two things. "Type Talk at Work" published some statistics which were gathered from the author's database of 20,000 plus individuals. There are some interesting statistics on % of individuals for each MBTI type at each of the following levels:
    - Entry level
    - Middle managers
    - Upper management
    - Executives

    There is also a book called "Developing Leaders" by Fizgerald and Kirby which is substantially more research oriented, with studies quoted up the wahzoo, including the Center for Creative Leadership, the Journal of Psychological Type, etc. Those two books have a substantial amount of evidence supporting several of the points that I made above.

    Still, they are statistics and averages and I think they would be biased towards who progresses upwards in larger organizations, which covers part of the population. Let's take Tori Amos, who I think is likely an INFP, which is at the bottom of the average income levels listed above. I'm sure she makes plenty of money, thank you.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    Hey guys, I have glasses (I don't usually wear them)
    Omg me too

    *ENTJ high5!*

  4. #134
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    What Simulatedworld said is correct as well.

    Another interesting point is that while there is a statistically significant difference in the number of Ns that progress upwards (as a percentage of type), the actual difference is small.

  5. #135
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    What Simulatedworld said is correct as well.

    Another interesting point is that while there is a statistically significant difference in the number of Ns that progress upwards (as a percentage of type), the actual difference is small.
    Doesn't "statistically significant" basically mean that the difference is large enough that we know it's not due to pure chance? So, what do you mean when you say the actual difference is small? Does this mean that it barely reaches the "statistically significant" threshold? I'm just curious what the numbers look like.

    (waiting for response that says: then go read the book. LOL).

  6. #136
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    I would suggest two things. "Type Talk at Work" published some statistics which were gathered from the author's database of 20,000 plus individuals. There are some interesting statistics on % of individuals for each MBTI type at each of the following levels:
    - Entry level
    - Middle managers
    - Upper management
    - Executives

    There is also a book called "Developing Leaders" by Fizgerald and Kirby which is substantially more research oriented, with studies quoted up the wahzoo, including the Center for Creative Leadership, the Journal of Psychological Type, etc. Those two books have a substantial amount of evidence supporting several of the points that I made above.

    Still, they are statistics and averages and I think they would be biased towards who progresses upwards in larger organizations, which covers part of the population. Let's take Tori Amos, who I think is likely an INFP, which is at the bottom of the average income levels listed above. I'm sure she makes plenty of money, thank you.
    I hate to say it but being published in a book does not validate weather or not the research is valid and reliable, is it a % of a recognisable population etc... what data source is used and how complete it is, how reliably it was collected etc, etc.

    It does sounds a better source than most I've heard off - but can't tell how reliable it is

    As I said earlier, nothing reliable has ever been produced on this site that I've seen. I'm not saying the book you talk of isn't reliable, it very well may be but I've not seen it....

    As a gut feel I'd say there will be some skewing but it isn't massive... ie there will be a higher than avraged proportion of one or two types but still not enough skew it away from SJ's... (at an educated guess).

    The list above shows houshold income... if you are an NT earning $75k on your own and an SJ earning $50k on your own and a gf who earns $30k.... hence it doens't stack up... also house hold income often includes state benefits and subsidies etc so more unreliability.... Research is rife with tricky bits

  7. #137
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    says who? why does the population % at large have to dictate everything in society these days? Everytime I hear "xyz racial/social/geographic/educationlevel/gender etc is under represented in wtf profession/success/test scores/income etc" I have to ask:

    WHY? why should the a priori form of statistics dominate the observance form of statistics? Why cant xyz group be under represented in wfc, while overrepresented in tyg??? Does every profession, school, test score, etc have to be a mini microcosm of statistical proportion? Why are people so against accepting differences in desires, cultures and priorities?

    Yes, there are mean angry old white men who would use what I just said to keep certain types/race/culture/gender down. However, thats not inherently part of what i've revealed. You can still believe in improving peoples abilities and not putting up a glass ceiling WHILE accepting that the population and microcosms have NO REAL REASON that they must correspond.

    so I call bullshit that board rooms represent the exact same proportion of the population. The old battle ground was, liberal = humans have no talents or unchangeable human nature vs conservative = humans are determined by the human nature that no one can overcome. I think its a childish debate to take either side.
    The reality is of course there will be skews in populations at the extremes, there ALWAYS is, but statistical theory means we ought to consider it to be normally representatvie until proven otherwise, and no one had proven otherwise... period. You can call bullshit as much as you like, but put your money where your mouth is and PROVE IT!

  8. #138
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I hate to say it but being published in a book does not validate weather or not the research is valid and reliable, is it a % of a recognisable population etc... what data source is used and how complete it is, how reliably it was collected etc, etc.

    It does sounds a better source than most I've heard off - but can't tell how reliable it is

    As I said earlier, nothing reliable has ever been produced on this site that I've seen. I'm not saying the book you talk of isn't reliable, it very well may be but I've not seen it....

    As a gut feel I'd say there will be some skewing but it isn't massive... ie there will be a higher than avraged proportion of one or two types but still not enough skew it away from SJ's... (at an educated guess).

    The list above shows houshold income... if you are an NT earning $75k on your own and an SJ earning $50k on your own and a gf who earns $30k.... hence it doens't stack up... also house hold income often includes state benefits and subsidies etc so more unreliability.... Research is rife with tricky bits
    Yes, well, I don't dig into how the research is done of course (maybe this is more of an xNTP thing??). I just look at the results. You may very well be right on that point. It did seem like there was a preponderance of evidence from different sources though and the information does seem to sync up with my experiences. That being said, I read somewhere that we are increasingly moving to a "perceiving" world, some of the research is no doubt dated and who knows, it could be changing.

  9. #139
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Here is something posed by my Astronomy professor, who I'm convinced is INTP:
    "A lot of people are practitioners; they do one thing well. Brain surgeons don't conduct heart surgery, nor vice versa. I have great respect general practitioners: those who go beyond just one field and dominate multiple ones. Such include Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin."

    This can easily sum up why xNxPs are recorded as having a lower income than other types: they do what they want to do, even if it doesn't pay well. And me- hell- I love doing what I do, but I'd love to do something completely different than what I do- and something else completely different from that. I want to try everything- really.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Here is something posed by my Astronomy professor, who I'm convinced is INTP:
    "A lot of people are practitioners; they do one thing well. Brain surgeons don't conduct heart surgery, nor vice versa. I have great respect general practitioners: those who go beyond just one field and dominate multiple ones. Such include Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin."

    This can easily sum up why xNxPs are recorded as having a lower income than other types: they do what they want to do, even if it doesn't pay well. And me- hell- I love doing what I do, but I'd love to do something completely different than what I do- and something else completely different from that. I want to try everything- really.
    ENTJs don't do what they want to do? I know nothing sounds more thrilling, to me, than running a large corporation, pay be damned.

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