[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ti competition vs Te combative?

[sculpting]

For me, an ENFP, I avoid competition except against myself. As soon I see a game arising I drop all interest and let the other person win. I want to post this in two places to get the thinker and feeler perspective.

If I may quote myself:

I think Ti plays competitive games but Te wages horrific battles. To really hurt someone I would have to revert to using 100% Te. I would destroy them, their friends, myself, and the universe as we know it. To do this I would first have to sever all Fi binds to them, so I did not feel their reflected pain.

This is why enfps make the best terrorists. It is why I endlessly forgive and try to love others no matter what. My internal dragon is not a beautiful thing so I quell it as soon as it peeks out. We enfps do this very naturally as Fi can see the horrific consequences of letting Te run free. As an enfp we are programmed to understand how to destroy others emotionally but at the cost of our own destruction.

It seems to me that Ti users may be best described as competitive while Te users are better described as combative?

I know EXTPs and ISTPs are very, very competitive.

What is the goal? How do you know that you have won?

What about INTPs?

How competitive do Te users feel? What is the end goal?

 

[entropie]

I think Ti plays competitive games but Te wages horrific battles. To really hurt someone I would have to revert to using 100% Te. I would destroy them, their friends, myself, and the universe as we know it. To do this I would first have to sever all Fi binds to them, so I did not feel their reflected pain.

I think it takes a lot of Fi to even think about starting a combatitive battle in which you destroy all mankind.

 

[Andy]

I can sort of see what you mean. I think competitiveness in Ti must be influenced by Fe and it's preoccupation with the opinions of others.

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as competitive. When someone gets in my way I'm not interested in beating them so much as simply removing an obstacle. I'd disagree with your quote. Te freed from Fi would never "destroy the universe" because it doesn't achieve anything. Severed from Fi, the actions of Te are impersonal. It wouldn't destroy anything that didn't need to be. It's only when Fi steps in that Te gains the potential for such devistation. There would need to be an inner core of hatred and rage supplied by a sick, under developed Fi.

 

[INTP]

it depends who im with, if im with someone whos competive or combative, i will be that too, more than the other guy. if others arent that im not much either, but can be little. for me its more that if i see someone whos competive or combative i get the feeling that he thinks that hes better than others and i get really huge urge to bring him down to reality by smashing him in what ever game he thinks hes good at.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Te is non-judgemental its passive. I think you are confusing it with the mighty Fi.

 

[Grungemouse]

Te is non-judgemental its passive. I think you are confusing it with the mighty Fi.

That's what I thought. Te is just the vessel, with Pi laying the tracks down. From another forum I go one, it's the EFPs who seem to criticize peoples posts, or the occasional ITJ whose Fi short-circuits and starts going on a flame spree. It isn't a Type-related forum, but the people in mind have their type in their signatures.

For me, I'm incredibly competitive in my areas of interest. Word games bring out the beast in me. I used to go to the hockey club at my uni (up until the point they started hassling me for buying their gear, pfft) and my favourite part of the game was chasing the opponent down and teasing the ball from them. The clacking of sticks. My mind is just dirty, or I'm picking up innuendos. In kickboxing, I was driven by pride and adrenaline to win. I'm not competitive by nature, but put me under pressure in my area of interest, and I am. Losing means failure, and I can't stand failure. I'd rather not try than stand the thought of failing.

Edit: Oh snap, I didn't notice the thread was moved.

 

[murkrow]

ENTPs are very often combative with me.

I feel very competitive with all males I don't feel cooperative with.

Oh well.

 

[JustHer]

Yeah, I think you are confusing Te with Fi

:/

 

[Risen]

For me, an ENFP, I avoid competition except against myself. As soon I see a game arising I drop all interest and let the other person win. I want to post this in two places to get the thinker and feeler perspective.

If I may quote myself:



It seems to me that Ti users may be best described as competitive while Te users are better described as combative?

I know EXTPs and ISTPs are very, very competitive.

What is the goal? How do you know that you have won?

What about INTPs?

How competitive do Te users feel? What is the end goal?

I have a very strong competitive streak when it comes to abilities/skills that I have even a slight interest in. To me, competition is a means of evolving and improving my abilities, in Darwinian fashion I suppose. Plus nowadays I find myself begging for any challenge that I can possibly get. I always wish to reach new plateaus, and competition helps me get there, especially when I'm competing with someone better than me. I can absorb their knowledge/skill by competing with them and surpass them, and THAT is one of the greatest feelings in the world.

I also have a very strong will when i set my mind on some goals, and I believe it's an Fi thing. If it comes down to me needing to become stronger/smarter to achieve some real task of REAL importance to me, I will walk through hell and back and not stop until I'm knocking on death's door to accomplish that goal. To me it honestly becomes "victory, or death". I go to that extreme because sometimes that's the only way I can work up the gumption to accomplish some very difficult things in life, with an abrasive willpower as hard as diamond .

 

[INTPness]

It seems to me that Ti users may be best described as competitive while Te users are better described as combative?

I know EXTPs and ISTPs are very, very competitive.

What is the goal? How do you know that you have won?

What about INTPs?

How competitive do Te users feel? What is the end goal?

Personally, I see what you are saying here. I grew up under an ESTJ guardian and I would absolutely agree that Te can be combative - always pushing, always pointing out flaws, critical, wanting to be in charge, riding people too hard, etc.

And my Ti is very competitive. I've gotten much better over the years, but because of this upbringing (always being pushed around verbally, etc.), the competitive side of my Ti was always turned on.

I have had a lot of interaction with other ESTJ's in life and I find the same to be true with them. For me, when I'm being "mature", for lack of a better word, I've learned to just let the insignificant battles go. There's other things I need to focus my attention/limited energy on. But, in the past and also when I've had more than I can take, that competitive switch will go on and stand up to Te and it's attempt to push, push, push. There reaches a point where I'm not going to allow the Te user to push anymore. And when it reaches that point, I won't be subtle. I'll throw up a brick wall and let them run into it.

If Te is somewhat flexible and willing to work with me, then I can take some pushing. But, if it continues to try and impose it's will (and starts to get into that grey area of being disrespectful/challenging), then Ti will turn it into a war right there on the spot. This has rarely happened, but I've had instances where an ESTJ boss was doing this and I just put everything I was doing aside, looked him/her straight in the eye, and began to "dress them down" or expose them (while still trying to be respectful) for all that they are right there in front of anyone willing to listen. Ti, for me, tolerates a lot, but it reaches a point where it will go to verbal war. And it will resort to everything in it's arsenal. These are some of the few moments in my life where I've seen an ESTJ actually back down and chill out real quick (and unfortunately, this same thing, when it happens, often brings F's to tears).

 

[Liquid and Flammable]

It seems to me that Ti users may be best described as competitive while Te users are better described as combative?

I know EXTPs and ISTPs are very, very competitive.

What is the goal? How do you know that you have won?

Personally I don't compete for winning the game. I compete, because a fight of minds is really enjoyable and can be very creative. In the end it's equal, whether I have won or not, the most important thing is the fair and hard fight. And it's very enjoyable to analyze it with my opponent.

So, in the end of a really good competition, I have won, and it's relatively equal whether I have won in an official way or not.

I don't know, how the STPs think about that.

And yes, I like competitions, but I really dislike conflicts. I don't like real conflicts getting too serious, it's more a sort of playing a game, it shouldn't be something to hurt anyone personally.

Te is longing for development and winning, Ti is longing for understanding.

 

[Kra]

I'm rarely, if ever, competitive for the sake of competition. If something tangible or useful is gained by winning, then yes, I will compete.

Bragging rights? I could not care less. Money? Now you're talkin'.

Real debate is another issue. If I have somewhat confirmed ideas, I will bounce them off of others'. I view friction of ideas as a means of refining, or "tempering" of material. This is, of course, only in the context of an honest debate. Going back to the earlier assessment of Te being utilitarian, debate is useful in telling me if an idea is useful or not, and I will relinquish it if it ceases to be of use.

Unfortunately, real debate is rare in everyday society. We see shouting matches disguised as news or argument more often. I view that as a waste of time, and as having to suffer fools, which I'm supposedly not very good at, being an INTJ (though I probably just use that as an excuse).

 

[sculpting]

thanks so much for your replies!

I was actually not expecting how many INTPs said they were competitive. I dunno why, but you guys are quiet I guess.

After posting this I realized none of the IXTJs I know come across as combative, however the two ENTJs I know are very distinctly combative and scare people-yet seem confused by why everyone is afraid, as they do not pereceive themselves as combative, just driven?? Perception perhaps? (I loved the two ENTJs myself)

I have worked for two ESTJ women and both were very controlling, abrasive, and keen for power. They played a very cruel game if needed but covered it with a weird fake Fe girlyness.

I can sort of see what you mean. I think competitiveness in Ti must be influenced by Fe and it's preoccupation with the opinions of others.

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as competitive. When someone gets in my way I'm not interested in beating them so much as simply removing an obstacle. I'd disagree with your quote. Te freed from Fi would never "destroy the universe" because it doesn't achieve anything. Severed from Fi, the actions of Te are impersonal. It wouldn't destroy anything that didn't need to be. It's only when Fi steps in that Te gains the potential for such devistation. There would need to be an inner core of hatred and rage supplied by a sick, under developed Fi.

I dunno if I would call this a sick underdeveloped Fi. Ne feeds us all the stimuli and potential stimuli around us. It dumps that into Fi, which means we mirror the emo content of our enviornment. We then respond to try and eliminate that suffering using Te as a tool. A weak Fi means I am bitchy and moody and emo sensitive. I think the Fi you see in these folks isnt weak-just conditioned by trama. They are responding to the pain that surrounds them.

good or bad? hurting others is always bad-until they hurt you and your group enough? scary stuff, that war we humans wage...horrific.

 

[tcda]

I don't think Ti is comeptitive, it is an introverted function so this owuldn't make sense. I see why you percieve this though so let me give my 2pence worth:

Ti is defensive, it seeks complete coherency of internal logic and to be above being disproved. So it basically "defends" itself against criticisms or hostile theories (even if it is pointing outflaws in others, it is seeking to defend the logical framework of the person pointing it out against a theorythat threatens this rather than to erase others and impose a plan).

This isn't to say that Ti-dominant types can only be defensive, but that we have a defensive style of reasoning even when we are trying toimplement a plan n the world (IMO). This is something I have ntoiced about myself (and others have noted about me) that I don't think is necessarilly an advantage, so I've had to use my other functions better.

 

[Windigo]

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as competitive. When someone gets in my way I'm not interested in beating them so much as simply removing an obstacle. I'd disagree with your quote. Te freed from Fi would never "destroy the universe" because it doesn't achieve anything. Severed from Fi, the actions of Te are impersonal. It wouldn't destroy anything that didn't need to be. It's only when Fi steps in that Te gains the potential for such devistation. There would need to be an inner core of hatred and rage supplied by a sick, under developed Fi.

This is very fascinating. I am extremely competitive, but not for the purpose of hurting anyone or for bragging rights.

First of all I have always LOVED competition because it energizes me to do my best. I am willing to give a "gentleman's" hand shake if I come in second place, because if I lost, well then it was to a worthy advesary. I respect the winner and usually befriend them as well (out of respect).

I maintained a 4.0 in college because of competition. I always managed to surround myself with the top 2% in class. We would have enjoyable study groups, but ultimately there would be fierce competiton for grades. I found out it was the only way I kept interest in doing my best.

I also challenge myself, because I am interested in improving and making things more efficient. I am fascinated with overcoming the odds and achieving the impossible. Someone telling me that I'm a girl or that I cannot do something or that I am crazy is a sure fired way of getting it done!

Now, sometimes people feel I'm being competitive with them personally when it's more about acheiving the objective. I am all about "getting the job done" and sometimes, I forget to factor in peoples feelings in the process so people sometimes get offended. I'm usually surprised by this.

For example when I was ten, I smashed into a girl twice my size playing soccer/futball because everyone else was shying away from her size and we were failing to acheive the objective out of cowardice! I did not hate the girl, nor did I fear her, I can't even remember her name.

My focus was solely on the ball. My only thought was that NOTHING would stop me from getting the ball away from her. I didn't mean to hurt her, even though I did. Once I had shaken her confidence it was easy for me to get the ball away from her from that point forward and so the objective had been accomplished. We went on to win the championship and the other players now steered clear of ME!

If the action gets intense, something snaps in my head and I WILL ACCOMPLISH THE OBJECTIVE no matter what even to the point of risking my own safety. It's nothing personal. Once the adrenaline wears off it's, "good game ol' chap!" and a handshake.

I am also not above letting someone with lesser skills than I have win, for the sake of them learning the game. Although, I hate it when some one LETS ME WIN! I don't have to be the winner. But competition makes things more interesting.

 

[Andy]

thanks so much for your replies!

I was actually not expecting how many INTPs said they were competitive. I dunno why, but you guys are quiet I guess.

After posting this I realized none of the IXTJs I know come across as combative, however the two ENTJs I know are very distinctly combative and scare people-yet seem confused by why everyone is afraid, as they do not pereceive themselves as combative, just driven?? Perception perhaps? (I loved the two ENTJs myself)

I have worked for two ESTJ women and both were very controlling, abrasive, and keen for power. They played a very cruel game if needed but covered it with a weird fake Fe girlyness.



I dunno if I would call this a sick underdeveloped Fi. Ne feeds us all the stimuli and potential stimuli around us. It dumps that into Fi, which means we mirror the emo content of our enviornment. We then respond to try and eliminate that suffering using Te as a tool. A weak Fi means I am bitchy and moody and emo sensitive. I think the Fi you see in these folks isnt weak-just conditioned by trama. They are responding to the pain that surrounds them.

good or bad? hurting others is always bad-until they hurt you and your group enough? scary stuff, that war we humans wage...horrific.

You are confusing me now. What type are you describing with this combination of functions?

ESTJs don't have conciouse Fe. It's a shadow function for them, and so it's use is unconciouse. Your description of them makes it sound like a deliberate thing. Are you sure they weren't ESFJ? They can be just as competitive as the ESTJs, they just use different tactics.

Actually, I maintain that the Te needs Fi to before it can get really bad. Our appocalyptic Te user is making destructive choices based around emotional imperitives. However, he has lost control - he isn't using his Fi function, rather it is using him! That's characteristic of an inferior function.

 

[Andy]

This is very fascinating. I am extremely competitive, but not for the purpose of hurting anyone or for bragging rights.

First of all I have always LOVED competition because it energizes me to do my best. I am willing to give a "gentleman's" hand shake if I come in second place, because if I lost, well then it was to a worthy advesary. I respect the winner and usually befriend them as well (out of respect).

I maintained a 4.0 in college because of competition. I always managed to surround myself with the top 2% in class. We would have enjoyable study groups, but ultimately there would be fierce competiton for grades. I found out it was the only way I kept interest in doing my best.

I also challenge myself, because I am interested in improving and making things more efficient. I am fascinated with overcoming the odds and achieving the impossible. Someone telling me that I'm a girl or that I cannot do something or that I am crazy is a sure fired way of getting it done!

Now, sometimes people feel I'm being competitive with them personally when it's more about acheiving the objective. I am all about "getting the job done" and sometimes, I forget to factor in peoples feelings in the process so people sometimes get offended. I'm usually surprised by this.

For example when I was ten, I smashed into a girl twice my size playing soccer/futball because everyone else was shying away from her size and we were failing to acheive the objective out of cowardice! I did not hate the girl, nor did I fear her, I can't even remember her name.

My focus was solely on the ball. My only thought was that NOTHING would stop me from getting the ball away from her. I didn't mean to hurt her, even though I did. Once I had shaken her confidence it was easy for me to get the ball away from her from that point forward and so the objective had been accomplished. We went on to win the championship and the other players now steered clear of ME!

If the action gets intense, something snaps in my head and I WILL ACCOMPLISH THE OBJECTIVE no matter what even to the point of risking my own safety. It's nothing personal. Once the adrenaline wears off it's, "good game ol' chap!" and a handshake.

I am also not above letting someone with lesser skills than I have win, for the sake of them learning the game. Although, I hate it when some one LETS ME WIN! I don't have to be the winner. But competition makes things more interesting.

It's true that a challenge can be interesting - but a challenge doesn't have to be a person. Lifting a heavy weight, running across hilly terain, completing a hard mathematical derivation - all of these provide that challenge and are just as good as competing against a person. In fact they are better, because a weight doesn't get upset when I beat it - a person just might.

That is perhaps one of the differences between INTJs and ENTJs - we're not quite as oblivious to over peoples feelings, despite what our reputation might suggest!

I think that is part of what annoys me about competitive people. Their confrontational stance usually appears so pointless to me. They take an oppositional stance just for the pleasure of it. I'm trying to complete something, and they have chosen to get in my way for no reason except their own pleasure. It strikes me as pretty much the definition of being an asshole. Under such circumstances, the desire the grind them into the dirt can become personal, but it's not a desire to beat them so much as to punish them for such unpleasant behaviour.

Don't get me wrong. If someone has a genuine object to the way a given task is being carried out, I don't mind. Even if I disagre with them, I still see the good intentions behind what they are doing. We are both trying to assure the successful completion of the task. For that, I have much more patients.

 

[tcda]

I think that is part of what annoys me about competitive people. Their confrontational stance usually appears so pointless to me. They take an oppositional stance just for the pleasure of it. I'm trying to complete something, and they have chosen to get in my way for no reason except their own pleasure. It strikes me as pretty much the definition of being an asshole. Under such circumstances, the desire the grind them into the dirt can become personal, but it's not a desire to beat them so much as to punish them for such unpleasant behaviour.

Don't get me wrong. If someone has a genuine object to the way a given task is being carried out, I don't mind. Even if I disagre with them, I still see the good intentions behind what they are doing. We are both trying to assure the successful completion of the task. For that, I have much more patients.

Excellently explained! I feel the same way as you actually.

 

[Not_Me]

I see nothing wrong with a bit of friendly competition. It leads to self improvement.

 

[Spamtar]

Regardless of whether its my Ti, Ne or Fe or whatever. The types of competitions I like are the ones where the other side thinks its winning...but all of the time though subtle leveraging and yes even via abdication, acquiescence, appeasement of various insignificent battles; the walls begin to close on my opponent. I love to hear the opponents laugh of triumph, followed but a subdued tone, to frustration at a setback to apexing at rage filled vexation.

A lot of James Bond story endings and the tale of brer rabbit and the tar baby are illustrative of the thoughts and feeling I am addressing in the abstract.
As far as traditional games (basketball, billiards, board games), unless there is a money on the line I tend not to be particularly competitive and am blasé about the whole affair. Chess however is an exception to that general rule.The most frustrating aspect is when the rules of who won and who lost are not obvious to the spectators/general public and left in the hands of a corrupt or inept abitrator who is allowed wide discretion to steal away victory.