[NT] TypeC INTPs versus INTPc INTPs

[MacGuffin]

That's odd. Everyone always said I was a dick.

ISTJ

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Sorry to be running late, as I have an account at both websites and posted over 2500 times at each, I am well qualified to comment. In this long post I tried to summarize the prominent social trends of both communities and evince the cultural values that underpin them.

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The following values are salient on the INTPc community.

-Appearing intelligent
-Promoting activities that establish some as more intelligent than others, for example the official IQ challenge and high IQ sub-forum. Mass of INTPness is another example, more subtle activities of this nature include threads in Academics and Careers or MBTI talk where people of one academic background are deemed superior to that of others. Similarly, people of one type (INTP of course) are superior to others, but in all cases, even if the intellectual superiority of INTPs isn't emphasized, one message has always been clear: Intuitives are superior to sensors and NTs are superior to NFs.
-Heated debating is encouraged. It accomplishes the aforementioned goal of making some appear superior to others by providing a competition which could rank some individuals as more intelligent or better than others. The informal nature of this kind of debating also contributes to the establishment of the pecking order I have just mentioned. The informality of the event easily allows for some to appear superior to others not by merit of exposition or reasoning, but by casuistry and appeals to the pre-established social order. For instance, when a person of a very high reputation clashes with a newcomer or one of a moderate to low reputation, the former will be thought to have said something more plausible or more important than the latter unless its altogether obvious that what the former said was meritless, which it rarely is.

What relevance does this have with respect to the main question? Most INTPs on INTPc uncritically conform to those values as the INTPs of this forum conform to the values of our community, hence, its important to know what the primary values of INTPc are. The values are as follows. 1. There must be a pecking order or a table of standings with respect to the worth of each member, usually the worth is taken to mean the same thing as intelligence. 2. Discussion of ideas is usually encouraged, however, not as an end in itself but as means to the end of promoting the first principle listed. 3. Maintaining the image of INTPs as superior to other types and most people both in the regard of intelligence and personal integrity. In summary, the majority of activity on INTPc is geared towards creating and maintaining the pecking order of intellectual worth, hence intellectual dishonesty, thoughtless conformity to the social regime are all acceptable only if they conduce to the maintenance of the order in question. However, when they do not, the most prominent posters will be eager to publicly rebuke anyone who engages in thoughtless conformity or intellectual dishonesty.

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Typologycentral.

-The creation of this forum was inspired by the 'great NF purge' championed by Hustler who embodies the core values of the community. He is a symbolic figure on INTPc who promotes the above mentioned values and the regime. A number of well known posters from INTPc were seeking to establish a scene of discourse where the pecking order is not nearly as distinct of a cultural value. Furthermore, it was also desired that NFs and non-INTP types have a forum where they would not be forced to conform to the rigid values of INTP-central or suffer from persecution.

Due to this fact, a firm cultural value was formed on this forum which to this day serves as the main distinguishing factor between the two communities: intolerance of the pecking order on INTPc. Consequently, the idea that a person's worth is to be appraised on the basis of his or her intelligence is either supressed or altogether excoriated. Furthermore, controversy and heated debating are mildly discouraged as they have been known to conceal the motives of maintaining the old social order of INTPc. The idea that some members are superior to others and therefore must be ridiculed or ostracized is deemed altogether unacceptable; it is combatted by the value of 'inclusivism' where all people are treated with some measure of respect to start with.

Certain INTPc scorn 'inclusivism' on the account that cultural values such as this one turned Typoc into the 'feel good shithole' or a community where any comment, regardless of its conceptual integrity can be deemed acceptable.

This may be true, a great deal of tolerance and forebearance is offered to the people of this forum who post substanceless remarks. By substanceless; I do not mean one-liners or notions that do not contribute to the community in any way, but notions destitute of intellectual merit. Notions of no scholarly interest or those that are fraught with factual inaccuracies as well as reasoning errors. One may say, posters who are devoid of serious ideas constitute a significant portion of the forum and that is a problem.

That is true, however, INTPc also suffers from the same defect as the majority of posters merely attempt to seem intelligent rather than pursue knowledge or sharpening their skills at the pursuit thereof. Is INTPc a place that is truly better suited for academic or intellectual discussions as Night has suggested? It does not seem so. Very few posters start intellectually stimulating threads and when they do, they are quickly derailed into subtle conflicts where people combat one another not for the sake of discussing ideas but for the sake of appearing intellectually superior to others. Quite frequently, shortly thereafter, thoughtless posters arrive and deluge the threads with subtle insults deriding the person of lower social status and rewarding the person of higher status. Either this scenario happens most of the time or the thread is simply ignored as most posters have no interest in discussing ideas of academic substance, at least not unless doing so offers them a chance to 'demonstrate their intellectual superiority over others'.

Altogether, there are very few intellectual discussions on INTPc, they are far more common here. For the very least, posters on this forum are not afraid to contribute to them and often do so, though often fail to propound substantial remarks. The main difference is that on this forum posters have greater liberty to explore ideas of their choice without worrying about incurring antagonistic sentiments.

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Summing it all up: the main values of this forum are centered around the principle of creating an environment where individuals of all types are free to discuss notions of their choice. The main values of the INTPc forum are centered around the idea of creating a pecking order appraising the worth of posters on the basis of their intelligence which has a certain in-built bias: the well established and highly reputed INTPs are to be deemed superior (more intelligent and therefore deserving more respect) than the newcomers or INTPs of lower reputation and more importantly, INTPs are superior to other types.

One may say that this forum accords to the 'NF values' as described by Keirsey and the other forum, as its most prominent posters would like to suggest, accords to the 'NT values'. I think that this statement is true, however, we ought not to make a mistake of equating 'NT values' with NT values as described by Keirsey. When I mention 'NF or NT', I am not referring to types or solidified unconscious dispositions but to mere, vague, if not arbitrary social constructs that descibe personalities belonging to some people of these types.

Communities endorsing values regarding the humble pursuit of truth, charitable and knowledge focused discourse are exquisitively rare today. In fact, such ideals hardly have a place in the contemporary academia. On INTPc and in most 'NT discussions', they have been usurped by values of shameless self-promotion and arbitrary denouncing of newcomers or poorly reputed group members for the primary purpose of maintaining the current regime.


Altogether, INTPs on this forum tend to conform to the cultural values of typologycentral by attempting to be at least somewhat tolerant and open-minded. The degree of hostility to others displayed by them on this board is also significantly lower than the degree they displayed on INTPc. When ideas are discussed they are not nearly as focused on attempting to prove their intellectual superiority to others. Instead of doing that, they take some measures to establish a constructive conversation, though in most cases of a personally relationally rather than of the intellectual nature.

 

[Dman]

Fun fact: we almost called this place Anti-SUV Central.

Awww!



Congratulations. I'm fairly certain that's the first time I've ever used those emoticons, even if it was in jest.

Probably the last time as well. The fact that one of them is called "wubbie" is enough to make my penis want to shrivel up and actually invert within my body.

I'd better go jump in my extra large SUV to get it pumped up again (mentally at least)!

 

[Spamtar]

^ First rate post Solitary Walker. Well worth the read!

 

[MacGuffin]

^ First rate post. Well worth the read.

INTPc humor.

 

[Dman]

To solitarywalker -

Interesting. Yeah, the pecking order does seem to get in the way a lot. That seems to be a newer phenomena than it was years ago. Before, if a "lower ranking" member made a valid argument and was not being responded to fairly, other posters would jump in defending that person and demanding the "dominant" person give a fair response. I don't see that happening much anymore.

The "underdog" or whatever is left to die on the vine, regardless of the merit of their argument. It's almost like there's a balance there that no one wants to upset, which is weird. I suspect that some dominant members may have too much influence, and no one wants to get into a war with them, so no one comes to the aid of the underdog. Potentially good debate dies along with it, and it seems people can't figure out why the "good debates" are few and far between anymore. At least, I did, until I started realizing what was happening. Perhaps why there isn't the perception of a lot of intellectual discussions there anymore...?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

To solitarywalker -

Interesting. Yeah, the pecking order does seem to get in the way a lot. That seems to be a newer phenomena than it was years ago. Before, if a "lower ranking" member made a valid argument and was not being responded to fairly, other posters would jump in defending that person and demanding the "dominant" person give a fair response....?

I've been a member at INTPc since 2006 and rarely have I seen what you've just described. I don't think that this phenomenon is at all new, though I admit that it may have been intensified recently.

 

[Night]

I've been a member at INTPc since 2006 and rarely have I seen what you've just described. I don't think that this phenomenon is at all new, though I admit that it may have been intensified recently.

What originally attracted me to INTPc was the freedom in exchange possible between members - especially as it applied to the exploration of otherwise complex topics. Things like religion, politics - abstractions that were difficult to find an audience offline - seemed culturally emphasized at INTPc.

From a top-down perspective, INTPc appears designed to facilitate what might be considered 'boundless' conversation, (dialogue free from the typical obstacles of social discourse - opaque elements like wanton politeness, external pressure to conform, emotional connection to target, etc.) and, in doing so, offers (when extrapolated) an opportunity for "pure thought". As INTPs generally have the reputation for being "intelligent" and "thick-skinned", the probability of emotional offense seemed proportionately small. Ergo, the ultimate chance of derailing sincere exchange over a misguided foible in etiquette was very slim. Opportunity is attractive.

Unfortunately - as some have already mentioned - social dexterity factors into the credibility of argument: especially as it applies to "keynote" INTPc members. Over time, the likelihood of unbiased exchange (perhaps it was my hope for unbiased exchange) diminished, as I realized (like others) that reputation preceded creativity when it came to establishing a baseline for shared intellectual exploration. Goals differ, of course. The error likely remains my own.

Not that TypoC is an idyllic landscape, either. Fluff (easier to discern Fluff) and empty-handed sexuality threads hold far greater lease 'round these parts. Sometimes I go for days without reading a single thread.

Still - a symposium these forums are not; realizing that inequality has changed the context of my interaction in the days and months since I began.

 

[SillySapienne]

This has probably been addressed, but INTPs who frequent this forum, as opposed to INTPc, tend to be more socially well-balanced, and a teensy-weensy bit less bitter.

But, what do I know, I really am far from fluent in INTP-speak.

 

[simulatedworld]

Most of the INTPs here are a lot cooler.

Just being on this forum instead of INTP central shows that one is interested in developing non-Ti functions and interacting with non-INTP people.

That's a lot more than I can say for Ti central.

 

[Dman]

I've been a member at INTPc since 2006 and rarely have I seen what you've just described. I don't think that this phenomenon is at all new, though I admit that it may have been intensified recently.

I joined in June 2004 and was mostly absent from 2006 - 2008. So I guess my perspective is from 2004-2005 compared to 2009.

 

[tcda]

This has probably been addressed, but INTPs who frequent this forum, as opposed to INTPc, tend to be more socially well-balanced, and a teensy-weensy bit less bitter.

But, what do I know, I really am far from fluent in INTP-speak.

Call me creepy but I enjoyed getting insulted by that avatar.

 

[Spamtar]

Fluff (easier to discern Fluff) and empty-handed sexuality threads hold far greater lease 'round these parts. Sometimes I go for days without reading a single thread.

I see the problem. The solution is simple. Put it in your hand when you read those threads.

 

[BlueGray]

Most of the INTPs here are a lot cooler.

Just being on this forum instead of INTP central shows that one is interested in developing non-Ti functions and interacting with non-INTP people.

That's a lot more than I can say for Ti central.

And if it's Ti choosing to focus on people?

 

[astroninja]

the ones here are less pointy than the ones over there come across as usually- more relaxed about posting here and more likely to be happy to interact (if that's what you call what intps do! ) with other types

the intps here don't gang up on other types and usually leave the bragging about how they're so much smarter than anyone else to the INTJs

that's just the impression I get... I've lurked over there a bit, and occasionally wander over to poke at a certain member there who doesn't come here often enough, but that's about it!

Agreed.

I poked around INTPc for a bit and found a lot of them (not all) to be very pretentious and caught up their own self-important arses . There's a lot of ganging up too, but what do you expect from a site called INTP Central?

I find it baffling how there's a pecking order in INTPc - isn't this a notion we're supposed to reject?

 

[Totenkindly]

Probably the last time as well. The fact that one of them is called "wubbie" is enough to make my penis want to shrivel up and actually invert within my body.

Damn, we're gonna have to package and market THAT baby and sell it, demand would be high!





I love being surprised by this forum (most notably here, SW's unexpected post).

I did pick up on a derogatory tone at INTPc regarding this place (i.e. "nothing to see here, go back to TypeC").

What a coincidence.

You picked it up, though, because it exists. *shrug* It's rather amusing.

Is it 'cuz they couldn't cut it there and ran here with their tail between their legs? Or because they have normal emotions and feelings here (as opposed to the cold logic sprinkled with dry wit contrasting with outbursts of emotional tantrums)?

Yes, they prefer their poison to come in a different package.

 

[Uytuun]

isn't this a notion we're supposed to reject?

read this again...

 

[Spamtar]

I find INTPc taging system (eh we have one too; see at the bottom of the page where it says tags followed by the word: none.) helpfull.
Over there the tags are almost instantaneous. Lot of the time the tags are essentially indirect talking shit of whoever has authority to post them, but many are helpful.

That being said their tags tends to be less than even handed on how a thread is targeted. I had a thread that brought up some interesting posts regarding elements of the human condition. It got semi trolled on by Miserable and the only tags I got were "miserable checks in, miserable sucks dong, then miserable checks out".

My thread [ note I'm still a seminoob there] however is the exception to the rule and their the tags tend to work well to find a similar subject or extrapolation.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I find INTPc taging system (eh we have one too; see at the bottom of the page where it says tags followed by the word: none.) helpfull.
Over there the tags are almost instantaneous. Lot of the time the tags are essentially indirect talking shit of whoever has authority to post them, but many are helpful.

That being said their tags tends to be less than even handed on how a thread is targeted. I had a thread that brought up some interesting posts regarding elements of the human condition. It got semi trolled on by Miserable and the only tags I got were "miserable checks in, miserable sucks dong, then miserable checks out".

My thread [ note I'm still a seminoob there] however is the exception to the rule and their the tags tend to work well to find a similar subject or extrapolation.

You bring up a good point: I do love the tags. Often though, the tags were more fun than the threads.

 

[Glaceau]

I did pick up on a derogatory tone at INTPc regarding this place (i.e. "nothing to see here, go back to TypeC").

I detect one here as well.

Is it any wonder that people treated so unkindly by plenty of INTPs at that site stay here and talk shit about INTPs there, in dumb broad strokes?
Of course they'll describe them as all manner of uncool and evil. Think about the origin of this site. It's human nature. Rejection stings.