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  1. #11
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid and Flammable View Post
    Hey, neptunesnet, thank you for telling us the other side. So it seems, that the NFPs recognize a similar change in the NTP like the NTP in the NFP?

    The NFP recognizes a change in that, which his/her expected of the other, and the NTP recognizes a change about the trust, the closeness and the reliability of the NFP. Does this description fit it?


    To both.


    Okay, that's the situation. Personally I found the solution to give a direct feedback on this behavior, saying, what I see (growing distance). One time I did that, but the ENFP said, she recognized that "just intellectually". In this situation I had not the personal power, I had in everyday life, but it shocked me, how equal it was for the ENFP. So, I try to learn to give direct feedback, and say, that I don't want to play games like that.
    That's interesting because my ex (ENTP) used to think that I was playing games with him during one of those notorious speed bump stages in our relationship. After he had expresseed that to me during a pretty heated verbal fight, I quickly found my voice. I couldn't believe he thought I was manipulating him mostly because it was so the opposite of what I was actually doing. Eventually, I explained to him that I didn't feel like he respected my morals and in not respecting those I didn't feel like he respected me, which was why I was withdrawing. And that threw him for a loop. We worked it out in the end, though. Luckily. Although in retorspect I feel like he may have started to hold his tongue way more than he had to in his attempt not to offend me.

    Because of that relationship, I've learned to be more vocal about what's important to me and when someone I've begun caring for decides to stomp all over that. I've also learned to understand that NTPs don't connect so many things to their personal identity as we NFPs do. That one was probably the hardest lesson to learn. I give lotttttsssss of feedback now. Just in case.

    The second strategy I want to implement is the shutdown of my own feelings, when I do something with NFPs. They can hurt too easily.
    Yeah. I figured that most NTPs rarely address feelings and emotions (like mine did) not because they're heartless and insensitive but because they don't really know how to handle them. Ironically, if anyone is able to help you guys understand your feelings I think it would definitely be a Fi user. We do the dirty work so that you don't have to.

    The NFPs:
    How should we react on these games?


    I wouldn't call it a game! That suggests to me that we're toying with you when we're doing anything but. We want to make sure that you respect us, which means "respecting our values," and the dipping is just a defense mechanism we use when we want to gauge where our boundaries are with you.

    I think the best way to "react to these games" is to be considerate when we're telling you what's important to us. Don't write it off as overly sensitive and silly because we'll generally be able to tell that you're judging us. Keep in mind, though, that this is a two-way street. The INFP (that's the only type I can actually speak for here. sorry about that.) should be more trusting and open up enough to tell the NTP what her values are and when they've been violated. But, you also have to give her reason enough to open up to you.

  2. #12
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid and Flammable View Post
    Questions for the other NTs:

    1. Did you experience the same? Did you also have/had problems dealing with that?
    No.

    I may have "problems" with persons but not with types.

    2. How can I solve this?
    Let's look at what you previously wrote:

    For me it's really hard to find common ground with the FP-types. When I see them act, they seem too irrational for me, too emotional in situations, where I cannot work with strong emotions.

    You know, emotions have rules too. They do not appear out of nowhere, out of any given situation. They have a logic of their own: If you yell at somebody, do not expect him/her to kiss you in return.

    You just have to learn how it works, observe carefully, and then behave accordingly. There are workable patterns out there.

    Learn and adapt.

    When you say "they seem too irrational for me", or that can't stand too much emotion, I'd say the real issue doesn't lie with NFs, but with you.
    Everybody has emotions, including NTs. We're just less familiar with the way we should handle them, but that's no excuse. If you repress them too much, or can't stand their presence, it can be very unhealthy.

    Once gain, do not expect NFs to make efforts to help you. It's rather you who will have to do the first step, and adjust.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #13
    Member Liquid and Flammable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Yeah. I figured that most NTPs rarely address feelings and emotions (like mine did) not because they're heartless and insensitive but because they don't really know how to handle them. Ironically, if anyone is able to help you guys understand your feelings I think it would definitely be a Fi user. We do the dirty work so that you don't have to.
    Hm. Maybe it seems for NFPs like this, but for me I can say that I understand and accept them completely. The difference between NFPs and NTPs seems to be, that the NTPs think in two spheres: Logical thoughts and emotions. They influence each other, because with logic we can transform emotions (in little way), and emotions are one (sometimes bigger, sometimes lesser big) factor, which is calculated in the logic sphere.

    For me I can say, that I don't want any Fi-user influencing this system. I also don't think, that the Ts must have lesser emotions, the emotions are just playing a different role in the making of decisions. I just cannot speak for myself, but I think, the most NTPs are more conscious about that than they show directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I wouldn't call it a game! That suggests to me that we're toying with you when we're doing anything but. We want to make sure that you respect us, which means "respecting our values," and the dipping is just a defense mechanism we use when we want to gauge where our boundaries are with you.


    I like your view, it has something of the objective view I find enjoyable. So, let me name it "games" until I understand, how I can work with it. It's a way to protect myself from being overly hurted by this.


    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I think the best way to "react to these games" is to be considerate when we're telling you what's important to us. Don't write it off as overly sensitive and silly because we'll generally be able to tell that you're judging us. Keep in mind, though, that this is a two-way street. The INFP (that's the only type I can actually speak for here. sorry about that.) should be more trusting and open up enough to tell the NTP what her values are and when they've been violated. But, you also have to give her reason enough to open up to you.
    Hmm... that wasn't the answer on my question. I try to explain. Think about a situation, in which you felt misunderstood, and began to draw back. I try to show a collection of these drawbacks to make it more clear, beginning with the actions, which are easier to handle, and ending with the more complicated ones:

    - getting quieter in conversations
    - going on distance in body-language
    - refusing touch (especially romantic situations)

    - refusing talking about a problem we perceive in the relationship
    - not investing in the relationship
    - having no time when we ask for doing something together
    - acting like you don't recognize us, even if we know that you had seen us
    - ignoring mails
    - ignoring in real life (no eyecontact, no greeting)

    Well, I don't think, that are all signals NFPs can send. The more healthy they are, the more they send just the upper signals, and the more immature they are, they send the least.

    I don't know, how to handle this behavior, and it's beginning to hurt. In this moments I think about cutting all connection, but you know, NTs can bind themselves very strong on others (even in friendship), a core-value of many NTs is loyalty and reliability in interpersonal relationships. So (to take the thoughts I talked about) the both spheres of thinking and feeling differ in their needs. The rational one knows, that leaving is better, the emotional one tries to defend the value-system.

    So that can be hard. I want to have the feeling, that I tried everything to end this "stupid games", until I can step back. Your experiences: What do you expect in the minutes, when you are doing this?

    ________________

    @Blackmail:
    What I mean, when I say "they seem too irrational for me", is that they seem to get hurt by completely other things, I would never get hurt about. The "rules of emotion" just differ, it's no repressing.

    So I ask about solutions to overcome the reactions - just to get a clear view about what happened.
    ** Upgrading my english **
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  4. #14
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid and Flammable View Post
    I don't know, how to handle this behavior, and it's beginning to hurt.
    As I said: the real issue might not be their emotions but yours.

    Don't be defensive, be introspective.

    In this moments I think about cutting all connection, but you know, NTs can bind themselves very strong on others (even in friendship), a core-value of many NTs is loyalty and reliability in interpersonal relationships.
    I'm not loyal nor reliable, even in interpersonal relationships. Loyalty and reliability aren't virtues that sound very ENTPish, by the way.

    I'm just honest: we're no saints.


    The first step towards self-improvement (if that is your real desire) often requires to be honest with our own flaws, to be aware of them.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #15
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid and Flammable View Post

    @Blackmail:
    What I mean, when I say "they seem too irrational for me", is that they seem to get hurt by completely other things, I would never get hurt about.
    What you mean is that you naturally expect them to behave the way you do. That's a slightly autistic expectation, don't you think so?

    Because it never works that way in real life.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #16
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I get on well with NFP's

    I have a close former collegue who I feel very close too, and my last bf was a ENFP. Haven't come across many INFP's although I generally get on well with. I like the F's balance on making me more humane...

    As for SFP... hmm tough call I don't think I've met a huge amount my sister. Can't really say, I suspect they are around my life and they are OK - don't drive me quite so nuts as SJ....

  7. #17
    Member Liquid and Flammable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What you mean is that you naturally expect them to behave the way you do
    Not really. Maybe you have experienced something like that. You act "normal" (in a way, you act with everyone, successful), and do normal things, which are working well with the most people. Maybe you wrote a normal mail - and suddenly, when you meet the other one again, he/she is reacting on a really unexpected way, e.g. by ignoring you (I listed above).

    Of course, you can say, that this guy/girl is just crazy and step on. And maybe you are right, since just extreme people can act in an extreme way, when problems grow. But, why not trying it?

    The other possibility is trying to break through this habits, and try to push it getting more constrctive. The second thing you may be right is, that the sensitivity about that can be a problem. But that's not the question now.

    I recognized this by FPs, other types react more constructive, and it's easy to speak about what happens. But some FPs seem to generate a wall, if they get hurted, and noone knows why. The problem is rising, when they hide behind, just waiting someone will break it.
    ** Upgrading my english **
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  8. #18
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid and Flammable View Post
    Hm. Maybe it seems for NFPs like this, but for me I can say that I understand and accept them completely.
    If you meant to write it that way, all I can say is that it's a bold statement.

    I try to show a collection of these drawbacks to make it more clear, beginning with the actions, which are easier to handle, and ending with the more complicated ones:

    - getting quieter in conversations
    - going on distance in body-language
    - refusing touch (especially romantic situations)

    - refusing talking about a problem we perceive in the relationship
    - not investing in the relationship
    - having no time when we ask for doing something together
    - acting like you don't recognize us, even if we know that you had seen us
    - ignoring mails
    - ignoring in real life (no eyecontact, no greeting)

    Well, I don't think, that are all signals NFPs can send. The more healthy they are, the more they send just the upper signals, and the more immature they are, they send the least.
    Pretty much every type is capable of doing that. Ignoring and denying social contact are just items in the social toolbox we all have at our disposal, and it's not the way you react that is indicative, but rather why you do it. I would say that the way of the first two and especially the last two are more about being introverted than being NFP.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  9. #19
    Member Liquid and Flammable's Avatar
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    Okay, I accept this as not specific for FPs, even though I have experienced these situations just with FPs. So, let me change the question:

    If a FP behave like this, he/she has reasons, which can be hard to understand for other types. Sometimes, especially with NFPs, there can be nearly no clue, what changed their mood (attacked their system of values). More than that, most FPs avoid direct confrontation about that. Sometimes they change their behavior completely without any (for me) understandable reason, and change it back. Speaking about this "strange" ('cause unknown) behavior will be refused and avoided, even when this would clear the situation for the others. This holds especially for younger FPs.

    While it's relatively easy to confront other types with that (and the conflict ends), FPs react avoiding, hurted, hysterical and negating. So, it can be really a problem to end conflicts with them, because there is no "rational" solution, which works with all the other types I know.

    The big question is:
    How to end these conflicts and how to talk about the reasons of this?
    How to stop the "games" and begin to shift the connection to a better understanding?
    ** Upgrading my english **
    Corrections for my language are willingly seen


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