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  1. #41
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    NTs, what's your view of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as others unto you,"? Does your auxiliary Te/Ti function approach the Golden Rule based on factual information as opposed to humanitarian information? I'm quite curious to see how you NTs approach ethical questions/problems.
    The representation above is very incomplete. Here's a more complete version of the Golden Rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    This is rooted in Christian dogma.
    No, it's a key aspect of the Christian faith, but its roots go further back. It's one of those spiritual tenets that appears in most religions and ethical philosophies.

    A rationalist's best bet is to establish a maxim that is legitimized by reason alone. On that note, Kant's categorical imperative is one such maxim: Can you will the action/decison in question a universal law? If not, it does not have reasonable justification. If I were a moralist, I would be a Kantian. However, I decided long ago that the business of ethics can be no business of mine since my comparative advantage is in logic and cost-benefit analysis.
    Logic isn't as useful as you make it out to be. There are far too many situations in real life in which the logical approach is nonsensical. There are far too many people who simply do not operate logically, and your attempts to apply logic will simply backfire.

    The purpose of a universal principle such as the Golden Rule is that it allows society to exist in the first place, without having to explain to each and every person why it is beneficial ethical/moral policy. It's a fundamental teaching tool, such as when telling a child, "Would you like someone to do that to you? ... [child meekly answers no] ... Well, then you shouldn't do it to others." It's easily learned, and produces benefits simply by showing people how to avoid most potential (and inefficient) conflicts.

    Something funny happens, when a Rational takes hold of a spiritual truth, encapsulated and phrased in a fairly simple way, and then interprets that simple statement entirely literally, as a logical, objective rule, rather than as a spiritual/ethical truth. Of course, the Golden Rule, interpreted in such an asinine manner, is nonsensical. Fortunately, most people aren't rational in that regard, however, and understand what it means without having to find every logical contradiction and paradox.

  2. #42
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I like to believe in the Golden Rule only strongly enough to recognize that there are sociopaths out there who may not care about what happens to them. Because of this, a group of people came together with similar views on how they would like to be treated and begun to enforce these views upon other people. Eventually a certain way of looking at the world has become the mainstream, "accepted" view of morality, and is enforced, as they would like to be treated.

    Rationally though, the Golden Rule makes the most sense to me as having an underlying basis for morality, even though I don't think we as humans can completely accept it.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #43
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I love Golden Showers
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #44
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    The deeper shit like that I like to leave to Ni and Ni tells me it is the closest representation of ultimate reality within current range.

  5. #45
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    wow ur Ni is golden
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #46
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think you guys are missing the point. The Golden Rule asks that we give others the same consideration that we would have given to us. It's not about specific reciprocal acts...you must place yourself in the other person's shoes and think about how you should be treated.

    NTs may be too literal-minded for moral concepts
    There we are.

    Most of the negative responses used literal and specious interpretations of the passage. Furthermore, it's unlikely that those claiming to act independently of mores founded on mutual respect and consideration don't complain aloud over being excluded, mistreated, or diminished -- implying the expectation of standards of interpersonal behavior. A simple forum search would bear that out.

    Edit: Uumlau gets it, too. Really, the lot of you are just posturing. Or college-aged and unable to reconcile ideals with reality.

  7. #47
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    It makes perfect sense. It simply means that you'll eventually be in the same position someone else is currently in, and that you should act toward that person in the way you would hope someone else would act toward you when you are in that position. It's fundamental fairness - don't expect of others what you're not willing to give of yourself.

  8. #48
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    well, I'm a self-described american pragmatist, so i wouldn't have my own perception of it - I say one's perception of it depends on the metaphysical system and belief structure of the person. In short, it depends how they view the world. As such, the Golden rule and it's validity is contingent upon the person grappling with it. I think this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the cognitive functions, Ti, Fe, or anything - it's about belief and moral sentiment.

    The essential problem of this question you ask has to do with Kant's categorical imperative - meaing that while it passes KAnt's "tests", it is NOT a good measure by which to decide right and wrong, and common sense tells us this. the golden rule can and does FAIL to produce moral, actively righteous actions in certain situations. A person who unconditionally follows the Golden Rule would not be able to end Hitler's life in order to spare the Jews, or to assassinate Stalin in order to save 10 million + Russian souls. Nor could they pull the plug on a terminally ill patient who was in terrible pain and was asking to die. As such, it seem to be good in theory, but it utterly fails when we consider the grander, more PRACTICAL scale and weight of moral sentiments. Hence, I think it has little "real weight" in most people's value systems.
    Well virtue ethics is the answer to deontological ethics (I won't even mention consequentialist), and I think a lot of the self-styled neo-pragmatists have some version or other of it (they call it "neo-Aristotelianism) but I don't buy much of that either.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousFeeling View Post
    NTs, what's your view of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as others unto you,"?
    The rule is fine as long as the person who follows it takes into account his neighbor's tastes because different people have different tastes.

  10. #50
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with the supposed "golden rule", has probably already been stated several times, haven't bothered to check though.

    That issue is... we're all different. We want different things. "Some of them want to use yeu, some of them want to be used. Some of them want to abuse yeu, some of them want to be abused." <-- epic song btw.

    But the point is that whot *I* want, others may not. I happen to rather like some rather strange stuff and would find it cute/affectionate to have my S/O have me literally on a leash and collar. Most people would find that degrading and be pissed if yeu tried to do so to them.

    Whot works for yeu does not work for other people. Whot yeu enjoy, they may not. One man's garbage is another's treasure. One's pleasure is another's torture.

    I see no point in bothering with a rule whose whole existence relies solely upon the assumption that everyone is perfectly identical and everyone wants exactly the same thing in all situations without variation, which's an obviously flawed concept.

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