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  1. #81
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Doesn't Ni just open up options for F or T to make judgments? Ni in the strictest definition would not 'tell you what is best' would it? It would just reveal all the possibilities and T or F would decide what's best.....right?
    That makes it sound too in-the-moment for an introverted function. Also I think neither Je nor Pi will function without the other present and contributing. One, obviously, will contribute more, but they still need each other.

    Speculations:

    ENTJs when they need an answer will pause a moment in their headlong forward progress and reflect. That would be Ni in operation, and heavily focused by Te. Together they decide what's best for the given situation.

    INTJs when they need an answer would pause a much longer moment, days or months longer, going through a bigger array of possibilities--not necessarily more possibilities, more like to a greater degree of abstraction (and thus connection to other things). But the whole thing is still focused by some Te question. In the INTJ the pragmatic here-and-now aspect of it will get lost somewhat in favour of abstraction, I guess.

    But still, for both, at any given moment it is very likely they are dealing with the kinds of issues or situations they prefer, and usually the obvious dealing function is Te. So when consciously called upon Ni doesn't have to go very far to find similar or related answers.

    So, if an ENTJ stereotypically has a problem with thinking they know best about something, that would be more a function of their dom Te rather than aux Ni?
    More Speculations:

    If we were talking INTJ, I'd say stereotypically thinking they know best is a product of faith in Ni. (You gotta have faith--if you don't, you're pretty much screwed because it does a lot more work than Te).

    But if we're talking ENTJ, gotta remember we're talking about people who (a) use Te a lot and are good at its focus area, and (b) enjoy getting the actually physical process of the solution started quite quickly. Even if they somehow didn't find the right answer in (a), they can and will correct it fast in (b). They by experience and functional preference need and can have faith that they are right. So they have faith in Te+Se, and also, naturally, faith in Ni.


    Final Speculation:

    And all of this promotes miscommunication with NTPs (and NFJs), I guess because Te, the focuser, isn't unfocused. The NTJ doesn't, unless pressed, question foundations of decisions in the moment. Te+Se is more likely to say, well there's your foundation right there *points to the real world*. And if you're pointing an NTP at the real world, they'll start using Ne, not seeing the foundation for the possibilities. (And if you point an NFJ at the real world, they'll see a wholly different arrangement of objects and processes, not mechanistic between things but human between people.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #82
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    Here's a good summary of Ni:
    Introverted iNtuition is "transcending to a meta-perspective." It's a way of seeing things that rises above competing views. Engaging this process starts with entering a trance-like "meditative mode" to withdraw from the world in order to purposefully gain an insight or realization. These insights may manifest as "aha!" experiences, the kind of thing that "pops" into your head while you're taking a shower. (For this reason Ni is sometimes thought of as "shower moments." Recently I told someone that having preference for DomNi is like being a "shower moment addict.")
    And just for kicks, here's a summary of Ni vs Ne from the same link:
    Now, it's always interesting to compare Ni and Ne, just in case you're not sure these descriptions fit you. So let me mention that one way introverted iNtuition and extraverted iNtuition differ is around converging and diverging. Extraverted iNtuition is divergent -- generating multiple possibilities -- while introverted iNtuition is convergent -- generating the single best outcome and settling on ONE scenario. The best metaphor I've ever heard for this is one of a plane taking off and landing. Ne tends to "take off," while Ni tends to "land."
    There's plenty more in-depth description of the nature of Ni here:
    INFJ iNtuition

  3. #83
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It focuses on connections and patterns, which are certainly not random. Brainstorming is saying all these connections out loud and testing them for viability.
    I mean the process, not the validity of the connections themselves once assessed. Brainstorming generates combinations made from a stream of consciousness, most of which are gibberish and at least immediately worthless. It has its uses, but it's not my preferred method because I've already prioritized and am ready to refine.

    their seemingly random dismissal of ideas to focus on one thing, which is almost never the only thing.
    Efficiency. 80/20. There may be a needle in a haystack, but who has time to find out? If I can develop and deploy a solution that accomplishes most design objectives well or all design objectives reasonably well, I simply don't care about a better solution hidden among thousands of other possibilities.

  4. #84
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    I mean the process, not the validity of the connections themselves once assessed. Brainstorming generates combinations made from a stream of consciousness, most of which are gibberish and at least immediately worthless. It has its uses, but it's not my preferred method because I've already prioritized and am ready to refine.

    Efficiency. 80/20. There may be a needle in a haystack, but who has time to find out? If I can develop and deploy a solution that accomplishes most design objectives well or all design objectives reasonably well, I simply don't care about a better solution hidden among thousands of other possibilities.
    Most people have more than enough time to find out. Efficiency is often a race against a non-existent clock. When there is a legitimate deadline, I meet or exceed it, but most times you guys kill me with your arbitrary deadlines. If given a choice between doing it fast and doing it well, I'd rather do it well.

    I don't normally see a problem as having one acceptable solution and one better one that is hidden like a needle in a haystack. I normally see every problem as having at least 4 or 5 equally viable solutions. Then I pick each one apart and tailor it to compensate for variables. The more you do it, the faster this process is. A lot of ENTPs can be quite adept at problem solving.

    Either way, ideally I would like to find the most effective solution in the shortest amount of time. And when that is impossible, I tend to go 80/20 in the workplace - and after the dust settles I almost always go back to refine and improve. I am a bit of a perfectionist and have a hard time leaving something to be mediocre or just acceptable. At home, I take all the time I need, which usually isn't much to begin with.

    Anyway, interesting take, thanks for your perspective.

    And Peguy, great link - thanks.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That makes it sound too in-the-moment for an introverted function.
    I assume you mean introverted perceptive function; Fi & Ti are very in-the-moment...

  6. #86
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Most people have more than enough time to find out. Efficiency is often a race against a non-existent clock.
    That is, of course, no less apologia for your perspective than the opposite is for mine. Most undertakings have expectations for a time of completion because they are part of personal agreements or obligations. Nevertheless, these are often evaded or ignored by those who operate outside of schedules and typically cause delays.


    When there is a legitimate deadline, I meet or exceed it, but most times you guys kill me with your arbitrary deadlines.
    Even personal projects benefit from self-imposed deadlines. They spell the difference between collecting a lot of ideas (NTPs) and completing a lot of projects (NTJs). Each group may insist otherwise, but one can't quite have both.


    Either way, ideally I would like to find the most effective solution in the shortest amount of time.
    Wouldn't we all; but ideals aren't practical, and that amount of time accumulates.


    Anyway, interesting take, thanks for your perspective.
    Same.

  7. #87
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    This has been a fascinating thread to read and explains a lot of the difficulties that I have with my ENTP supervisor. It has also changed my perspective on a few disagreements that we've had about "what matters". I doubt it'll change the way that I work, but it has given me perspective into the merits of the way that he works. I chose to work with him precisely because I knew that he's very ENTP. However, the big difference between dominant Ni and Ne has been a problem recently. I tend to think that he's not prioritising properly and generates more possibilities than we can realistically deal with given our manpower and funding, he thinks that I'm not considering all the possibilities.

    Right now, I simply let him do his thing and brainstorm without pulling me into whatever brilliant scheme he comes up with on a daily basis. Unfortunately, the other students seem to be unable to say "no" to him and are run ragged, pulled in a million different directions that would form a cohesive picture for the lab if it all worked - but not for the thesis that they have to write up eventually. We all like him as a person, but this lack of a cohesive direction is wearing everyone down.

    *shrugs* I don't see this problem being resolved any time soon, but it's fine. I chose him because I knew that we are very very different people with very very different approaches. I do believe that despite our differences, this relationship is healthy and balanced with mutual respect. It's just that I find him irritating at times when we have disagreements, whereas my other INTJ and ENFJ supervisors seem to "get" my pov immediately. Even when my INTJ/ENFJ supervisors agree with ENTP, they explain it in a way that I understand, and I tend to be won over a lot more easily. I'm not sure why that is. It just feels like ENTP supervisor and I lack a common vocabulary. This thread has definitely helped.

  8. #88
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    [QUOTE=Kalach;1009897]
    Speculations:

    ENTJs when they need an answer will pause a moment in their headlong forward progress and reflect. That would be Ni in operation, and heavily focused by Te. Together they decide what's best for the given situation.




    More Speculations:

    But if we're talking ENTJ, gotta remember we're talking about people who (a) use Te a lot and are good at its focus area, and (b) enjoy getting the actually physical process of the solution started quite quickly. Even if they somehow didn't find the right answer in (a), they can and will correct it fast in (b). They by experience and functional preference need and can have faith that they are right. So they have faith in Te+Se, and also, naturally, faith in Ni.


    Exactly right! If we're in an emergency the time for brainstorming is over. Do the most obvious thing now and reassess as the situation progresses!

    I am not adverse to brainstorming new solutions. And I do not usually run into problems with ENTPs, however at most company meetings there are more than ENTPs and ENTJs present, therefore for the sake of expediency and dismissing the say E/ISTPs early before they zone out or get angry, let's listen to what they have to say and give them something to work on NOW!

    We can have a special brainstorming meeting if I am at a loss for ideas, however nothing irks me more than listening to a bunch of ideas that have no basis in reality because they are based on imaginary or non-existant premises or repeating all the details that I already have a grasp on and are being lost on the other 96% of people in the meeting. I apologize in advance for constantly interrupting you and stating the main point for you in the best interest of time. However . . .

    As an ENTJ I have an ability to immediately asses the cost, and consequences of an action based on my experiences, theory and what I know of history (which is usually a lot more than most people).

    I am also willing to take a short term loss to achieve a long term gain (something most SJs have a problem with) however I am used to 99.9% of my projected outcomes turning out exaclty as I expected (much to most peoples extreme annoyance).

    So, if you would really like to achieve the best of all possible outcomes, ask your ENTJ friend to schedule in a brainstorming session over lunch (so we can accomplish two necesary things at once). In the meantime let's end this pointless meeting so that I can attend to my three other projects before I run off to my Tae Kwon Do class at 5:15, get dinner for the hubby and kids and not be late for teaching my Leadership training Seminar at 6:45!

    We ENTJs usually have a LOT going on.

  9. #89
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    You guys make it seem like all ENTPs do is brainstorm all day long, or come up with outlandish schemes. No.

    The point is that an NTJ might pick a solution and run with it and it may clearly not be the best solution, but they basically give the "my way or the highway" impression. And when we offer a different solution, we are accused of wasting time. I've seen my ENTJ sis run head first into so many problems because she saw a quick solution and didn't take an extra minute or two to make a plan B or even check her plan for basic holes.

    I don't know anyone who can juggle as many tasks as well as I can, or as fast as I can. Believe me, most of us ENTPs are get-shit-done types. So many of us on this site are entrepreneurs and we don't get that way from daydreaming all day. I don't know any slacker ENTPs - can't say the same for the INTPs, though.

  10. #90
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't know any slacker ENTPs - can't say the same for the INTPs, though.
    Doing Calculus for fun is NOT slacking! :steam:
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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