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  1. #71
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I know an INTP who endlessly criticizes what he perceives as varying forms of close-mindedness, yet when someone points out that their motivations were different than the motivations he's assigned them, he genuinely believes that his theory is correct and these other people are simply too stupid to realize that such were their motivations.

    It's fascinating.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  2. #72
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I know an INTP who endlessly criticizes what he perceives as varying forms of close-mindedness, yet when someone points out that their motivations were different than the motivations he's assigned them, he genuinely believes that his theory is correct and these other people are simply too stupid to realize that such were their motivations.

    It's fascinating.
    Yeah, Ti can be just as bad as Fi in that regard.

  3. #73
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Anyway I believe this was written by an INTP, so I wonder if it only makes sense from the NTP standpoint or if NTJs see any merit in it as well.
    Similar experiences of mine have involved mechanistic determinations of NTPs; e.g., they identified a pattern and concluded that no additional information could refute the prediction of an unaltered course. I would adduce comparable, even parallel models that defy mathematical consistency; but they preferred data points to general principles.

    Creatively, though, NTJs are driven to refine narrowly focused concepts; while NTPs thrive on scatter-gun free association and interconnections that upend working prototypes. NTJs seek design freeze, NTPs begrudge it.

  4. #74
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Similar experiences of mine have involved mechanistic determinations of NTPs; e.g., they identified a pattern and concluded that no additional information could refute the prediction of an unaltered course. I would adduce comparable, even parallel models that defy mathematical consistency; but they preferred data points to general principles.

    Creatively, though, NTJs are driven to refine narrowly focused concepts; while NTPs thrive on scatter-gun free association and interconnections that upend working prototypes. NTJs seek design freeze, NTPs begrudge it.
    Between two, a small discrepancy: One complicates and one simplifies.


    This is a good point. Ps seem to thrive on suggesting and expanding options while Js work best paring down the available options to choose a course of action.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Yes, I seriously hate it when INTPs say something like "define xy". It seems they really REALLY like "defining" things for no apparent reason. Define temperature. Define IQ. Define time. Wtf? It's a debate, not a "let's define obvious things in the most eloquent way"-contest.
    ha ha yeah that was shocking in my first contacts with NTPs.

  6. #76
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This is a good point. Ps seem to thrive on suggesting and expanding options while Js work best paring down the available options to choose a course of action.
    NTPs are the consummate "creative people," able to produce a large and varied volume of potential candidates or solutions; NTJs are "visionaries" in the sense that they swiftly reject most candidates, grading on a curve, then pursuing the single, most viable solution. The major conflict, I think, is between Ne and Ni. Personally, I cannot see the value of discovery made by random, or composition achieved by arbitrary synthesis (like brainstorming) -- that is, it doesn't work for me. I focus on the matter and seek an answer through linear research or deep contemplation.

  7. #77
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    NTPs are the consummate "creative people," able to produce a large and varied volume of potential candidates or solutions; NTJs are "visionaries" in the sense that they swiftly reject most candidates, grading on a curve, then pursuing the single, most viable solution. The major conflict, I think, is between Ne and Ni. Personally, I cannot see the value of discovery made by random, or composition achieved by arbitrary synthesis (like brainstorming) -- that is, it doesn't work for me. I focus on the matter and seek an answer through linear research or deep contemplation.
    Why do people see Ne as random? It focuses on connections and patterns, which are certainly not random. Deep contemplation, for me, means looking at all the possibilities of something. Brainstorming is saying all these connections out loud and testing them for viability. Nothing magical or random about it.

    You pick one thing, convince yourself it is a "viable solution" and you work from there. But what is your process for swift elimination of most candidates? I find that is my biggest hurdle when working with TJs - their seemingly random dismissal of ideas to focus on one thing, which is almost never the only thing.

  8. #78
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You pick one thing, convince yourself it is a "viable solution" and you work from there. But what is your process for swift elimination of most candidates? I find that is my biggest hurdle when working with TJs - their seemingly random dismissal of ideas to focus on one thing, which is almost never the only thing.
    See, this is the huge source of miscommunication. NTPs almost expect a detailed explanation of the elimination process, but that is not how Ni works. And just because a lot of the time you can't explain why one option is the best, that doesn't mean that you just picked it randomly... Ni tells you that it is the best, and being able to describe how this Ni knowledge comes to you is practically impossible.

  9. #79
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    See, this is the huge source of miscommunication. NTPs almost expect a detailed explanation of the elimination process, but that is not how Ni works. And just because a lot of the time you can't explain why one option is the best, that doesn't mean that you just picked it randomly... Ni tells you that it is the best, and being able to describe how this Ni knowledge comes to you is practically impossible.
    That's why I said it was seemingly random. My larger point was to illustrate that Ne is no more or less random than Ni, and should be seen as such.

    When Ni has its 'aha' moments and Te comes down with a sledgehammer negating and dismissing everyone else's opinions and ideas, it can be annoying and claustrophobic. Ni isn't infallible. Neither is Ne.

  10. #80
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    See, this is the huge source of miscommunication. NTPs almost expect a detailed explanation of the elimination process, but that is not how Ni works. And just because a lot of the time you can't explain why one option is the best, that doesn't mean that you just picked it randomly... Ni tells you that it is the best, and being able to describe how this Ni knowledge comes to you is practically impossible.
    Sorry to butt in, I'm definitely not a T , but I am confused about your statement and am trying to understand more about functions.

    Doesn't Ni just open up options for F or T to make judgments? Ni in the strictest definition would not 'tell you what is best' would it? It would just reveal all the possibilities and T or F would decide what's best.....right? So, if an ENTJ stereotypically has a problem with thinking they know best about something, that would be more a function of their dom Te rather than aux Ni?

    My Ni would help me figure out what new Fe construct I am trying to find for a particular poplulation. But it isn't Ni that decides ultimately. It is Fe for that particular group.........right?
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