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  1. #31
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    NTJ - given the context, a word is meaningful in and of itself, and once the context is understood, the burden of understanding is on the listener, since the word is what it is (sorry, trying to ape NiTe fairly ineffectively here)
    No, not at all, that's fairly accurate

  2. #32
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    NTJs see words as inherently meaningful. NTPs see words as abstract representations of something inherently meaningful.
    Yeah cuz NTPs are dominant perceiving types (they have a perceiving base function) while NTJs are dominant rational types (they have a judging function).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Unless those beliefs are the fabric of Ti itself, in which case it's very, very hard to get an INTP to look at the issue in any other way. If giving you a reason to change your beliefs is nigh impossible, are you really always willing to change them?
    Lol... again, I am answering the actual words that you uttered -- I've precisely answered your question.

    Look at it again.

    ...Are you really always willing to change them?
    Yes. I am always really willing to change them.

    I have the intent to change if I realize I'm wrong.
    I will not refuse to change my mind out of stubbornness
    or revenge
    or a vendetta
    or embarrassment
    or whatever other hell of a reason you can offer me.

    This is unlike some people. I know many who will fight, and deny, and refuse, and circumvent, and whatever else. They are NOT willing and often even know they are not willing. Because they don't want to change their mind.

    But, just as I said above, willingness has nothing to do with it.

    If I realize I'm wrong, I'm changing.
    If I think you're wrong, I might sometimes even WANT to change my answer, because sometimes I just want to get along, or might feel like being viewed favorably or what not... but I can't. Instead I have to endure your annoyance with me for not agreeing with you. (Note: "You" meant in the general sense.)

    I've tried to do otherwise and it doesn't work, I feel like crap.

    So, dear friend, your question here -- "If giving you a reason to change your beliefs is nigh impossible, are you really always willing to change them?" -- is really non-sensicial to me. Logically, I can be 100% willing to change while at the same time you remain unable to show me that I'm wrong. *shrug*

    ... Sorry for the Long Version, but the Short Version did not appease you.

    I have the same problem with them. They never give any feedback on anything unless they're extremely impressed (in which case you get one of those rare and exceptionally rewarding moments of beaming Fi) or extremely pissed off (in which case you get to deal with inferior Se's unchained rage channeled through Ni's awareness of how to REALLY get back at you, which is not something anybody should ever have to deal with!)
    That seems to be my experience. Out of the blue I'll just get this overpowering emote from them -- either joy or anger. otherwise I'm constantly trying to feel out what is happening and just cannot get my hands on much at all.

    I find that knowing how to state their opinions clearly and give feedback at the right times makes all the difference with INTJs. It makes some of them really delightful people--it's still hard to get them to pay attention to your ideas in the first place because they're too busy to care, but if you can break in enough that they start to respect your ideas in general, they're waaaay more malleable and open to change than they seem on the outside.
    I agree, just from dealing with the likes of my boss.
    But I'm still not quite sure how I got through the cracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    NTJ - given the context, a word is meaningful in and of itself, and once the context is understood, the burden of understanding is on the listener, since the word is what it is (sorry, trying to ape NiTe fairly ineffectively here)

    NTP - we can't understand the contextual surrounding until we know what the words are representing, because the words themselves are just symbols. Once we know what those symbols represent, and what those mean, then we have the contextual framework that will make further discussion meaningful.
    Oh, cool -- got it.

    yeah, I read everything as a "sign" rather than the reality. it's all pointers and meaning changes based on context.

    Which leads to the heavy contextual emphasis of NTP and the annoyance I feel directed at me by NTJs, who think a lot of this should be 'self-apparent.'
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Heh, I can empathize with both of those original paragraphs depending on whether I'm talking to an INTP or INTJ. I don't think they nail ENTP and ENTJ quite as accurately (at least from my experience), but they aren't totally off either.

    When it comes to language my view is that explicit definitions are good, because it makes communication easier. English is not superior to French and German is not superior to Japanese, but if we're going to have a discussion then we need a common language to understand each other. That is the purpose of the definitions (to me at least).
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Unless those beliefs are the fabric of Ti itself, in which case it's very, very hard to get an INTP to look at the issue in any other way.
    Exactly, INTPs are more than willing to change their minds, they just cannot (seem to) change the assumptions under which they operate on an absolutely fundamental level. And the point is that don't *see* those assumptions. So they also don't question them.

    I find that knowing how to state their opinions clearly and give feedback at the right times makes all the difference with INTJs. It makes some of them really delightful people--it's still hard to get them to pay attention to your ideas in the first place because they're too busy to care, but if you can break in enough that they start to respect your ideas in general, they're waaaay more malleable and open to change than they seem on the outside.
    The thing that I've found works is first to work through the basics in cognitive style and assumptions before you start to work through a (complex) issue. You also both need to be open and willing to adapt your communication style a little. I find that discussions can be very mutually enriching when you do that. But the moment you're no longer making a conscious effort - and I sometimes don't on this board - it can be a real train wreck. On that note, you mention what NTJs can do to adapt to NTPs, but NTPs should also make a little effort to adapt to NTJs. Also, the more personally and emotionally involved INTs are in a discussion, the more tricky it gets IMO. Overall, though, I haven't had *that* many issues with INTP-INTJ discussions. I can think of way more problematic types...I respect our P brethren a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Now translate this into a general discussion where many different types of people are discussing a topic, and one person uses the word "love." How are we supposed to know what that means? I guarantee at least 50% of the ensuring arguments will be about something the original poster never meant.
    Yes, I agree 100%...only it struck me that the NTJ used the term "debate" whereas you're talking about a "discussion"...

  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    On that note, you mention what NTJs can do to adapt to NTPs, but NTPs should also make a little effort to adapt to NTJs.
    I get on this board to escape the real world, not do what I have to every day.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I found this in The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki and thought it was an incisively accurate description of many of my disagreements with NTJs. (The original referred to INTJs and INTPs, but I find that it applies equally well to their E counterparts so it's slightly edited.)

    Enjoy!


    The peculiar disconnect that nearly always happens between NTJs and NTPs. From the NTJ's standpoint: "He seems awfully attached to his model, as if it's the only possible one. There are so many possibilities he hasn't ruled out. His argumentation is simply unfair: he is choosing observations to stack the deck to favor his interpretation over all others. He seems oblivious to the complexity of the subject. He does not seem to know what he's doing."

    From the NTP's standpoint: "I'm trying to point things out and draw distinctions in order to define a vocabulary that carves out some aspect of the subject matter. That would be forward progress. But he refuses to look. He keeps translating everything I say into some moronic vocabulary that he's already familiar with, where what I'm saying is a trivial goof. He seems completely stuck in his box."



    Anyway I believe this was written by an INTP, so I wonder if it only makes sense from the NTP standpoint or if NTJs see any merit in it as well.
    Lenore is an INTJ, I take it she did not write this?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I get on this board to escape the real world, not do what I have to every day.
    Then no cuddles for you, my dear.

  9. #39
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Then no cuddles for you, my dear.
    NTJ cuddles feel like an iron maiden

  10. #40
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    NTJ cuddles feel like an iron maiden
    *cuddles!*

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