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  1. #11
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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  2. #12
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I am not sure I experience things in this exact way. It is great to get other people's ideas and perceptions before I decide.

  3. #13
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I personally have to say and it's a very personal thing: while general consensus aims to portray the J type as an opinion nazi, who once made up his mind never changes it and if one had looked very carefully over the years on typeC and found out that especially the INTJs are far from being totalitarian:

    one may ask himself, whats then left of a difference between Ps and Js ?

    I may answer this questions with one clean stroke and its a thing Ps would ever hate to admit: we are insecure; we may love what we want and adore what we love and be the most sensible and imaginative companion you ever had in your life, but we are insecure about ourselves and our impact on the world.

    Cause there is Chaos in Engineering, aobsolute Chaos !

    And the one who does see that and can phrase his words a way to prevent the p from feeling that most of the times, is not only J but a very wise man, who clearly needs to get laid by me:

    my icq: 64019888
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #14
    Pumpernickel
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    This is very true for me:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    He seems oblivious to the complexity of the subject.
    That's usually how I feel when I'm arguing with an NTP.

    They are SO convinced in the models they create, that the more they try to explain them the more I start seeing all the gray area and uncertainty and the more frustrated I become at the fact that they don't see it and that I can't explain it because it's Ni.

  5. #15
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You're creating stereotypes here, every rational man could overcome in an instant.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #16
    Pumpernickel
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    Huh??

  7. #17
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    entropie,

    I find that INTPs like to give an outward appearance of being flexible (Ne) and are easy to approach and discuss any topic with, but will very rarely change their internal beliefs on anything (Ti.) They'll play devil's advocate and discuss lots of different possibilities just for fun, but won't actually seriously consider changing their beliefs very often.

    INTJs are more difficult to approach in the first place and will often refuse to listen to new ideas unless you can show that their current interpretation is ineffective (Te), but if you're able to break through this rigid outer shell then they'll give your ideas the utmost consideration and may completely reinvent their entire perspective on the topic (Ni.)

    INTPs are flexible now, rigid later.

    INTJs are rigid now, flexible later.



    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    That's usually how I feel when I'm arguing with an NTP.

    They are SO convinced in the models they create, that the more they try to explain them the more I start seeing all the gray area and uncertainty and the more frustrated I become at the fact that they don't see it and that I can't explain it because it's Ni.
    That's the thing--we aren't convinced that the models we create will completely explain the entirety of reality; we only seek to explain single particular systems and situations at a time. Ti wants to define precise terminology for how to discuss a given system meaningfully, so that we'll know exactly how it operates under a precise set of theoretical conditions.

    Ni doesn't like that because once one of those conditions changes, the entire system collapses so there's no point in defining such specific sets of conditions in the first place.

    But what I think you NTJs miss about us is that Ne is really good at noticing when those conditions have changed and quickly adapting Ti's standards by writing a new set of rules for every possible situation. We don't actually believe that the model we build for situation x will also apply to every other possible situation--we just have to approach it that way because we don't have Ni there to "feel" its way through everything. We need a rigidly defined internal structure, but it works because Ne is good enough at inventing new approaches that we can just intuit an entirely new rule system in real time, every time conditions change.

    Ni asks, "What's the point in that? Why try to precisely define every possible set of conditions in theory, when your definitions don't apply roundly and empirically (Te) across all possible sets of conditions?"

    One of us needs internal consistency and the other needs external, and in each case we are balanced by flexibility in the opposite realm.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #18
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Yes, I seriously hate it when INTPs say something like "define xy". It seems they really REALLY like "defining" things for no apparent reason. Define temperature. Define IQ. Define time. Wtf? It's a debate, not a "let's define obvious things in the most eloquent way"-contest.
    Oh, boy. If I hate defining words like these, am I still an INTP? Because there's little I hate more.

    Once, I had an art class that began with the definition of a line. The given answer was something like "a visual representation of the path of a one-dinemsional object moving through a two-dimensional space."

    Sorry, I'm not sure I know any NTJs. Maybe a professor I had whose class literally made me cry.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Let's see...

    I don't know if it's an NTJ vs. NTP thing, but it does annoy me when people approach some subject by defining things based on their own internal model, with the intention of then using their definitions to categorically answer all relevant questions...without first stopping to see what's real; whether their definition corresponds to anything in reality. And when they then seem incapable of stepping outside their defined framework and taking an alternative set of definitions to see what they get with them.

    You say Ne is good at recognising situational change and that Ti can adapt when such is perceived, but what about when you're dealing in a realm that's highly theoretical and supposed to be closer to universal than anything that changes with situational variables?

    Thing is, I'm not at all sure it's NTPs I've had this problem with.

  10. #20
    . Blank's Avatar
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    It's kind of like micro vs. macro economics.

    Rather than just looking at them as two separate systems, it's all really one system that feeds into one another. You can understand macro by itself, you can understand micro by itself. How micro feeds into macro and vice versa is what's interesting. In order to do that, you have to look at specific (theoretical) cases.

    If you're selling apples, but there's a shortage of them... <--You look at that kind of example, understand the theory behind it (after figuring out and labeling the phenomenon *not required) and go, "Ohhh...okay," and begin to apply that one self-evident theory against other models to see if it stands up.

    In other words, it's not the system or theoretical reality that matters, it's the method, or meaning behind it that does matter.

    Of course I'm speaking for myself, and my example is a bit arbitrary, but whatever.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

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