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  1. #91
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    Doing Calculus for fun is NOT slacking! :steam:
    It is, if that's *all* you're doing...

  2. #92
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It is if that's *all* you're doing...
    No, sometimes I give my right hand a break and let my left hand have a go at whatever.

    I bathe daily, wash my clothes, at put at least 5 minutes a day of effort into my hair. What more do you normal people demand of me?
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  3. #93
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    No, sometimes I give my right hand a break and let my left hand have a go at whatever.

    I bathe daily, wash my clothes, at put at least 5 minutes a day of effort into my hair. What more do you normal people demand of me?
    hahahaha, I do all that over my morning coffee before I even start my day.

    But seriously, though. I have worked at least 12 hours a day for as long as I can remember, except for the past 6 months when I've been taking it easy and focusing on my personal life. And then, after work I've pursued various educational degrees in the evening, while doing freelance gigs on the weekends and in my spare time. Been doing it like this for more than a decade. I don't waste my life brainstorming. And even brainstorming is a quick process, which I do while doing other things. Ne is my default function, so ideas and possibilities come to me very very quickly. This is why so many lawyers are ENTPs - because we can change course and adapt very quickly, no matter what is thrown in front of us. We have a lot of flaws, but slowing down the process is not one of them. At least it isn't for the ENTPs that I know, including myself. But I will speak up if I think your one measly little idea sucks.

  4. #94
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    hahahaha, I do all that over my morning coffee before I even start my day.

    But seriously, though. I have worked at least 12 hours a day for as long as I can remember, except for the past 6 months when I've been taking it easy and focusing on my personal life. And then, after work I've pursued various educational degrees in the evening, while doing freelance gigs on the weekends and in my spare time. Been doing it like this for more than a decade. I don't waste my life brainstorming. And even brainstorming is a quick process, which I do while doing other things. Ne is my default function, so ideas and possibilities come to me very very quickly. This is why so many attorneys are ENTPs - because we can change course and adapt very quickly, no matter what is thrown in front of us. We have a lot of flaws, but slowing down the process is not one of them. At least it isn't for the ENTPs that I know, including myself. But I will speak up if I think your one measly little idea sucks.
    And while you Extraverts interact with your external world, I think I'm going to stare out my window and introspect on what I could be doing if I wasn't introspecting.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You guys make it seem like all ENTPs do is brainstorm all day long, or come up with outlandish schemes. No.

    The point is that an NTJ might pick a solution and run with it and it may clearly not be the best solution, but they basically give the "my way or the highway" impression. And when we offer a different solution, we are accused of wasting time. I've seen my ENTJ sis run head first into so many problems because she saw a quick solution and didn't take an extra minute or two to make a plan B or even check her plan for basic holes.

    I don't know anyone who can juggle as many tasks as well as I can, or as fast as I can. Believe me, most of us ENTPs are get-shit-done types. So many of us on this site are entrepreneurs and we don't get that way from daydreaming all day. I don't know any slacker ENTPs - can't say the same for the INTPs, though.

    Touche!

    Honestly though, I have never really had a problem with any ENTP or INTP, in fact I think you guys are great!

    I LOVE spending the day hiking with my ENTP friends and randomly trading ideas and witicisms, I also enjoy hiking with my INTP/J friends who allow me to think without getting offended by my silence and often point out some interesting detail I would have been too preoccupied by myself or too talkative with my ENTP friend to notice.

    I am not saying that ENTPs endlessly talk either, but many have to learn limits in order to move about in everyday society. When my ENTP daughter was very young 4 or 5 I was impressed by her eagerness and attention span to discuss the creation of time and space and alternate dimensions and yet after an hour when I told her it was time to do something else she was very upset and wondered what she did wrong. I often had to tell her NOTHING, it's just that we've been talking for an hour and Mommy has other things to do today.

    When she was 8-10 she would come up with these elaborate story lines of pretend that would take 15 minutes to explain to the kids in the neighborhood, her ISFJ sister would tune out in two minutes and wander away with the other kids racing off to see what she was doing. No one ever stuck around to play the game.

    I simply told her that is why she needed to go to college so that she could finally find like minded friends to feel normal with. In Highschool she has learned to masquerade as an ENFP just to fit in. And she's not so quick to be offended when people interrupt her or just plain zone out.

    I think she is the most amazing person and people are finally seeing as I do that she is a wonderfully responsible person with an ability for leadership and a maturity well beyond her years.

  6. #96
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windigo View Post
    I think she is the most amazing person and people are finally seeing as I do that she is a wonderfully responsible person with an ability for leadership and a maturity well beyond her years.
    Aww, that's so sweet. Your daughter seems so energetic and lively - I love that!

    The thing is, I get on talking sprees - I can't deny that. But then I switch to quiet mode where I cannot be disturbed. It's always these two extremes - on or absolute off, and no middle ground. And when I am talking, I don't need anyone to answer me back, I am just thinking out loud. I talk randomly all the time to hear my own thoughts and make them somewhat tangible so I can poke at them from all angles and rotate them like a 3D model. It's how I sharpen my Ne, I think. The quiet mode is Ti in pure form, going over everything that I took in throughout the day and discarding this or expanding that.

    I sympathize with your daughter... that was exactly how I was.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Aww, that's so sweet. Your daughter seems so energetic and lively - I love that!

    The thing is, I get on talking sprees - I can't deny that. But then I switch to quiet mode where I cannot be disturbed. It's always these two extremes - on or absolute off, and no middle ground. And when I am talking, I don't need anyone to answer me back, I am just thinking out loud. I talk randomly all the time to hear my own thoughts and make them somewhat tangible so I can poke at them from all angles and rotate them like a 3D model. It's how I sharpen my Ne, I think. The quiet mode is Ti in pure form, going over everything that I took in throughout the day and discarding this or expanding that.

    I sympathize with your daughter... that was exactly how I was.

    Actually that sounds a lot like me too. I remember about 3 months after I first got married telling my ISTP hubbie that I realized he was simply intoning "umhum" in the appropriate pauses. Then I laughed because I realized that I didn't really need him to listen . . . I was merely exploring the problem and felt silly talking to myself. He has learned to jump in at the interesting parts and give some pretty insightful points before he zones out again.


  8. #98

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    I apologize for digging up old threads, but I found this via Google and found it very interesting. My experience has been that communication with other NTs (whether NTJ or NTP) has been less defined by what's different about us as much as it's been defined by what's the same about us. We NTs aren't very common, so I'm not used to somebody being very good at playing the game I normally beat people at.

    That said, I think there are some differences. We both tend to think of things in terms of models. The difference is the role that model plays.

    It seems as though the NTJ has already drawn the conclusions they want to draw. The model serves more as a means to that end. In other words, if the model doesn't support that end, then it should be changed.

    An NTP has it the other way around. The model serves as a way to draw conclusions. Any conclusions that are drawn but aren't supported by the model need to be changed.

    Reality is somewhere in between these two ways of looking at things, and I think both sides understand this (at least if they're mature). An NTJ can be prone to confirmation bias: changing the model any time it doesn't support your conclusions doesn't make a bad idea right. At the same time, NTPs may become indecisive when their model has been proven wrong. They understand that their model has been destroyed and will likely need time to recalculate the model based on new information. That's ok in some cases, but in other cases that recalculation can literally take years.

    Aside from that, I do have a couple of pieces of advice for NTJs in dealing with NTPs (mostly because I'm an INTP and I can answer that question better than its converse):

    1. It seems to me that NTJs take debates more seriously than NTPs. While NTJs aren't afraid of debates, my experience is that they are less likely to start them for the sheer heck of it. Also, it's a mistake to assume that the NTP believes everything they're saying. I love playing devil's advocate, and I will take up a point of view I am not sure about or even that I emphatically disagree with to make my point.

    2. Nothing sends me into debate mode more than someone who's sure of something. Typically, this is pretty common among J types (including NTJs). The more sure somebody is about something, the more sure I become of the opposite (even if I don't believe the opposite). Typically, I will be more amenable if the other side can show why they believe the way they do, but are willing to consider other points of view (or have already considered other points of view).

    3. This actually applies to both sides, but the only way to win an argument is to be right when the other side is wrong. This is a truism, but it is commonly forgotten. An endless debate happens either when both sides are wrong or both sides are right (albeit different).

    Hope that helps someone.

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