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  1. #231
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Why apologise for disagreeing? Isn't apologising something people do when they've done something that would upset another person? If you're talking about an all-out, gloves off style argument then that's a different thing but I read this as in debating a topic that you and the ENTP disagree on.

    Keep in mind as a general rule ENTPs enjoy debating, it doesn't matter if the other person is right or wrong or a good or bad debater, we like people with different opinions cause that makes us rethink our stance and/or argument and it mostly matters that they don't get emotional as in upset because we're prolly enjoying ourselves. Apologising would indicate to me that if I say something wrong in my argument (which I'm mostly probably detached from emotionally even if I'm passionate about it) then I'll upset you as you are taking it personally, asking to explain in more detail an aspect that you've misunderstood or clarifying that you've misunderstood would be received better imo.
    It's more like, we're having a conversation when I throw in a 'giant smelly fish of an idea' into it that is logically wrong. The ENTP in question would just automatically retort with something that IS logical, and I know she's right, but it feels as if she closed up with a 'Don't talk, you're illogical and stupid' sign on the door. Either I'm right, thus she's immature or repressing something, or I'm wrong and reading my own feelings as if they were hers.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  2. #232
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    It's more like, we're having a conversation when I throw in a 'giant smelly fish of an idea' into it that is logically wrong. The ENTP in question would just automatically retort with something that IS logical, and I know she's right, but it feels as if she closed up with a 'Don't talk, you're illogical and stupid' sign on the door. Either I'm right, thus she's immature or repressing something, or I'm wrong and reading my own feelings as if they were hers.
    Hmmkay, depends entirely upon the individual. People have often said they didn't think I was open to other views in a debate because I sound sure of myself and challenge views quite hard but from my perspective I always have an open mind cause nothing is ever concrete and decided for me. My INFJ sis is most sensitive to this frequently telling me and my ESFJ mum to stop arguing when we're having a ripper of a debate. Maybe you're friend is a tool when it comes to people saying something they find illogical, maybe you're projecting. Can't narrow that down for you

    Either way I don't think apologising for having a giant smelly fish of a view is necessary.

  3. #233
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Q do you sleep?
    heh, recently not really. I have a big deadline I've been trying to meet, which means my sleep is all screwed up. If I sleep, my mind still doesn't shut off from the stuff I'm working on and I'm anxious that time's-a-wastin' (with petty sleep) or, in my sleep, I'll think of a "brilliant" angle to tackle in my work, and I'll wake myself up, in fear that I won't remember it if I wake up later. And, if I keep sleeping, in my dream, it's really watching myself work through the process of solving the angle anyway, in minute details, full script and all. So, I literally spring myself up, with my computer lying beside me on the bed, and get back to work, until my mind is calmed again, briefly, because that idea was tackled. So, my sleep is in spurts of a few hours max. I just woke myself up because of one of these "ideas" (and I'd been asleep for 2 hours).

    I do this until time is really running out, like a day or two before the deadline, and then, it's "zone" time. As in, no sleep, no eat, no bathroom breaks, no moving from my spot (I developed sciatica because of my bad posture beind held for hours on end, year before last). This "zone" time is coming up soon. I can't work in pieces, if I'm intently invested in something, I can't do anything else beyond 100% focus on the thing at hand, from beginning to end, and I'm only calmed until the end is reached - one shot. So, yeah. My work ethics is shyte.

    Besides, sleeping means I'm probably missing out on some fun adventures in life.

    Have you ever seen Ti not bound by reality? Not in like a fun Ne way...but in a kinda weird way.

    For instance an ENTP I know kept trying to convince me I should be buying platinum and holding it as an investment. Okay, logically there may be no fault in this idea. But-perhaps this is the premises part-for me, in my particular situation-I do not have time to deal with such a complex investment scheme, thus it is inefficient and the incorrect answer (Te says so!). I didnt argue or anything, but just jotted it down mentally as weird.

    Most of this entps's ideas are like this-yes, logically they connect, but in the dimension we all live in, they are not the best path forward. Even worse they will sometimes be inconsistent with historical data. It worked once, thus is correct-even if no one else can replicate. They are flawed, not the idea. He will spend months arguing these points with the other entps. I have another entp-4.5M-who has done this same thing. 4.5M has costs my at least 200 work hours in the last year that were wholly focused upon removing his ideas from my product line. Funny, I do like him nowdays. He isnt evil, just not quite "right".

    I have been chatting with K about how Si may help ENFPs ground Fi. How does Si help ENTPs ground Ti? or does it? I dunno... Could these be failures of Si to ground Ti ideas in reality?
    I never seriously consider ideas that are not realistically feasible and only if the benefit is far > than the cost (accounting for EFFORT). So, I dunno about such ENTPs. Can't help ya there. EFFORT guides a hella lot of decisions in my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    1*So ENTPs, or at least you, don't think disagreement is something worthy of apologizing for if you can explain your side? What is worth apologizing for? I'm just curious.
    Honest apology is not just a sentiment for me, it's a promise (a contract) to be aware to avoid the same occurance in the future. Given that the reality of human interactions is disagreement, I don't see the relevance of apologizing for disagreements, in and of itself. I apologize when I see that I have hindered or harmed the other's resource(s) in some real way. Resources being their time, energy, monetary, emotional or other tangible investments into me or our interaction.

    Besides, if I apologized for every disagreement I have with people, I'd be apologizing more than discussing. IRL, I usually present my disagreement using Fe to make it palatable so the disagreements are not generally very conflict-like.

    2* I understand that, though when I apologize its when I feel like I lost 'points' (Think 'The Sims') with them. Recouping losses is the goal in mind when I do. I feel shitty if I don't feel like I did enough to fix a situation.
    For me, the way I make up 'points' is more action/impact oriented. Such as, trying extra hard to understand something else they say, and showing my interest, attention and understanding in this subsequent thing. Past cannot be fixed, it can only teach us about pitfalls to avoid in the present and the future. So, the only way to 'recoup losses' is to either show gains in something else, fix the subsequent results in some tangible way from that previous loss, or, prevent a similar loss in the present or future.

    I very rarely "wallow in the past" - to me it's unproductive use of time. Look back at the past, enough to figure out the mistakes, then DO SOMETHING. Move on. Onwards and upwards.

    3* What I think bugs ENTPs the most is that my train of thought is usually inconsistent, or NONexistent, which almost always shoves a non-sequitur into the ENTP's gears. Since I'm unbalanced, I make so many slip-ups by non thinking before I speak, because I lose whatever I thought and can't usually get it back again.
    As an ENTP, the way I think through thoughts is by bouncing around an idea, so I welcome when someone else uses me to do the same. The thought doesn't have to be finalized, in concrete, completely coherent form; just work your way through comprehension of your thoughts using the ENTP as a springboard, perhaps?

  4. #234
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    That may be true in general, but I refuse to be included in this stereotype.
    I agree. I'm a bitch if people deserve it and I don't care.

  5. #235
    Junior Member blucie's Avatar
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    Ha - this post is 5 years old. Nonetheless I'm going to reply.

    Agreed. I just started reading profiles of female ENTPs yesterday and I was startled at the accuracy - I had no idea so much of my behavior was related to my type (whereas the general profile of the ENTP is nowhere near as accurate).

    The comparison in male vs. female ENTP reminds me of this: I have a couple of INTJ friends, one of whom is positively gorgeous. His appearance has insulated him from the pressure that most INTJs feel to learn better social skills, which they don't have naturally. I see it as analogous to the male vs. female ENTP. Female ENTPs aren't readily accepted, so we learn to adapt, we mature. Male ENTPs do not have this refining pressure, therefore they remain immature longer.

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