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  1. #191
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    OK, then...



    Rape is still one of the hardest charges to get a conviction on. There still is a bias against the victim in the situation; the argument that "she shouldn't have dressed so sluttily" or "what he did was wrong, but you know, with how she was flirting with him, she shouldn't have given him the wrong idea". Domestic violence continues to be incredibly widespread to this day, often underreported due to other factors like the potential economic impact, or threats of retaliation. With the low level of funding we give social services in this country, most of these women have little recourse in these circumstances. Given the proven psychological impact of the cycle of violence, this isn't just an unfortunate situation, it's a continuing cycle that disproportionate
    Ok, so rape and domestic violence are problems (duh?), but I thought we were arguing about which problems cause oppression. You think women are oppressed due to fears of being raped or beaten by more physically powerful men?

    I believe you might have a misconception of what women did prior to industrialization. Until their children came of age, they did keep the house. However, the more important jobs they took were the crafts they undertook, such as weaving, knitting, spinning, milking and dairy work, among other things. The key difference between this age and the industrial age was that these crafts were indispensable to men. They could not live without the labor of women, and as such, women had coequal, if not superior, power within the household. Not only that, but if a woman left her husband, these crafts could provide a means of living.
    Women were powerful in their households, but they were not powerful in society. They presided over domestic affairs, but anything beyond such affairs was a man's territory. Women were viewed as inferiors to a much greater extent pre-industrialization than now. Just compare a woman's position in industrialized nations to their position in non-industrialized nations. Women clearly come out on top in the industrialized ones.

    After industrialization, all these crafts were replaced by factory goods. Like you said, the women could just pick them up at the department store... but you need money for that. The only means of making money were in the factory jobs that men worked, and the ones women worked were much lower paying. This also fundamentally changes the power dynamic of the household: not only could the woman buy goods, so could the man. She was indispensable no longer. As such, the man was the only outwardly productive member of the household, and controlling the majority of the wealth, had unquestioned dominion over it.
    Have you ever taken a history class (I'm sure you have, being interested in law...)? Industrialization was a catalyst for feminism. Industrialization allowed for women to breach the confines of domesticity and enter into the workforce alongside men (though admittedly in inferior positions to men, initially). It allowed for unions and more independence from men, and the fact that they received pay for their work allowed for women to realize that they were inherently valuable by quantifiable measures of value (ie, money). You think industrialization has served to decrease the female gender's power? Really?

    If I sleep with a lot of girls, I'm a player. If a girl sleeps with a lot of guys, she's a slut. This is regardless of what she may think of the situation; we're talking about societal paradigms here. Society and its views and norms permeate and influence the way we think about the most mundane of subjects.
    I agree with this! But that does not mean that women are viewed as inherently inferior to men. That just means that there is a societal stigma against female sexuality, and instead of trying to change this stigma by convincing society that female sexuality != sluttiness, women just need to not let such arbitrary social paradigms influence their actions. Women are not overtly punished by behaving in a sexually promiscuous way; they just get their feelings hurt when people call them a slut and the sense of being outcast when such insults are thrown at them. If women unite to change the way women react to societal stigmas, allowing for women to just essentially say "Yeah, so what? I am a sexual being, and I enjoy sex. I'm going to indulge in sexual pleasures just like you men do. What's the problem with that?", then problems like these can be easily eliminated. Eventually if enough women are proud of their sexuality and expressive about their sexual pride, then it won't be a societal stigma anymore. It's about female psychological empowerment, not direct elimination of societal stigmas. We can't tell society to not believe in something; we have to prove to them why such beliefs are invalid. That's what I mean by a shift in a female's frame of mind (or, as you stated it, "what she thinks of the situation") being the solution to this kind of issue.


    Think of something as simple as a car sale. Yes, the salesman is trying to get as much money as he can from any customer. However, in general, they prefer female customers. Why do you think this is, given that women can be particularly cagey bargain-seekers in other, more self-serve purchasing environments?
    Because women don't know as much about cars as men do (stereotypically), so they are more easily tricked into thinking a vehicle is a good deal? It'd probably be easier to convince a man to buy silk lingerie or some expensive perfume for his wife than it would be to convince a woman to buy some silk lingerie or expensive perfume, as women stereotypically know more about this subject and thus won't be tricked into thinking something is a good deal.

    Why do you think it is? Because women are more easily persuaded to spend money? Because people find women to be more easily manipulated? Well yeah, women probably are perceived as being easily manipulated when it comes to purchasing cars, as stereotypically, women don't know as much about or have as much of an interest in cars as men do (stereotypically)...

    You think this is indicative of females being viewed as inferior?

  2. #192
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    teslashock, Qre:us, onemoretime.... you ENTPs are never allowed to argue like this on the forums again. There's no reason to put a thread, or yourselves, through this.

  3. #193
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I get that a lot round here, I suspect I've got more F than some of the NT women, but my T is twice as big as my F.... or something along those lines
    I think my T is ten times bigger than my F.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think I come off more like the guy ENTPs than the girls, online. Because, I don't come here to avoid conflict and make nice. I come here to play, shoot the (bull)shit, and call it like it is. And, I argue.
    And, keep at it, because, well, what else is there to do?
    You do seem very different from the other ENTPs, though with an amazingly sharp Ti and the most playful Ne. You are a freaking rockstar! I have pondered this before. (not the rockstar part-the different part, though maybe you could be a rockstar)

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    IRL ENTP females seem like ENFPs, until you start asking about their motivations.
    Break it up by age.

    I think you will see ENXPs change drastically as the tertiary grows in. We grow in opposite directions though. Sex seems to more important with entps though.

    Another odd entp dude/chick diff-many entp men are very touchy during casual interactions, hands on my back, our heads touching or holding hands, while entp women do not touch other people. Entp men also can be very effiminate in their gestures and mannerisms as they hit 40. Some estp men are like this as well. I would call them gay except I know they are married with kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I'd say the main difference between male and female ENTPs has more to do with how each is treated by society and how such treatment molds their personalities rather than biologically-induced cognitive differences. The noticeable differences have nothing to do with sex and everything to do with gender.
    As I read through and became utterly lost in the sparkly Ti making up the last eight pages, I pondered.

    I think perhaps culture and cognitive combined play a role. I have no Fe so I pretty much ignore societal expectations.

    However as I understand it Fe is much more sensitive to localized cultural perspectives and being accepted as part of that culture. I would guess that no matter what culture an ENTP women is in, she will always be different due to the early Ti, thus never really fit in and be forced to be strong and independent. So when Fe starts to grow in, perhaps it is done without every imposing a sense that she should really conform? You guys get very sweet and caring, but never feel limited or oppressed?

    I'd guess maybe ENTP guys, would feel that Fe pull more strongly as they age and seek respect and acceptance. Thus perhaps onemoretime's perspective is through that societal lens of a "normal" guy? I dunno... So maybe he sees oppression, where an entp chick would see opportunity and room for growth?

    It would be neat to look at different cultures and see how Fe shapes the gender expectations.

  4. #194
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    As I read through and became utterly lost in the sparkly Ti making up the last eight pages, I pondered.

    I think perhaps culture and cognitive combined play a role. I have no Fe so I pretty much ignore societal expectations.

    However as I understand it Fe is much more sensitive to localized cultural perspectives and being accepted as part of that culture. I would guess that no matter what culture an ENTP women is in, she will always be different due to the early Ti, thus never really fit in and be forced to be strong and independent. So when Fe starts to grow in, perhaps it is done without every imposing a sense that she should really conform? You guys get very sweet and caring, but never feel limited or oppressed?

    I'd guess maybe ENTP guys, would feel that Fe pull more strongly as they age and seek respect and acceptance. Thus perhaps onemoretime's perspective is through that societal lens of a "normal" guy? I dunno... So maybe he sees oppression, where an entp chick would see opportunity and room for growth?

    It would be neat to look at different cultures and see how Fe shapes the gender expectations.
    This is a really good point. ENTP women don't fit in, and their tert Fe tells them that at an early age. The more their tert Fe develops, the more healthy an ENTP woman becomes and the more able she is to adapt to certain groups and fit in better. I agree that whenever I feel "oppressed", I treat it as a challenge, not a limitation (thereby eliminating the chance for me to actually feel oppressed), but I suppose I can't expect all people/women to naturally treat oppression in the same way that I do.

    To the bolded: that's a possibility. Onemoretime and I clearly have opposing views on the legitimacy of feeling oppressed. I definitely have my views because I see such potentially oppressive forces (the ones onemoretime and I have been debating) as a challenge more than a setback. Onemoretime doesn't see it this way; his tert Fe sees a place where social harmony is lacking and wishes to care for those in an inharmonious position.

  5. #195
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    I never feel oppressed by society. I truly believe that rules simply don't apply to me, so I ignore them and go about my business.

    If someone tries to hold me back, I get mildly amused and then continue on as if I am brushing away a fly. It doesn't even register in my brain.

  6. #196
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'll admit to frequently thinking "fuck everyone, I'm doing what I want and I'm charming enough by this age to get away with it!"

    it's amazing how few people will get in your way when you smile sweetly at them
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #197
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'll admit to frequently thinking "fuck everyone, I'm doing what I want and I'm charming enough by this age to get away with it!"

    it's amazing how few people will get in your way when you smile sweetly at them
    sft.

    And for those that can resist that line of offense, they usually withdraw and give me what I want when they see my sheer will and stamina to argue that one small point for hours and hours.

    This thread is a good example of the type of behavior I'm talking about.

  8. #198
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    true... especially if that relentlessness is accompanied by a nice smile the whole time... I've been told that it gets unnerving!

    but yeah... this thread is totally a working definition of ENTPness (I mean, I had no clue that the thread would spring to 20 pages with no problem!)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #199
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    when entp women smile sweetly, you are so screwed. Just give up.

    They describe my best friend entp as "motherly". She totally reinvents their systems around them to accomplish her goals.

  10. #200
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post

    but yeah... this thread is totally a working definition of ENTPness (I mean, I had no clue that the thread would spring to 20 pages with no problem!)
    Hah I don't see how you could really expect anything less from a thread with ENTP in the title

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