User Tag List

First 2101112131422 Last

Results 111 to 120 of 235

  1. #111
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w2
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Aaahhhh how I love the ntps. <3

    I find a lot of similarities between myself and the ENTP posters on this forum. Whenever I question my type and stumble upon something written by Jenocyde, Eck, Qre:us or Synarch my doubts are quelled by laughter and guffahs. I would likely be more of an annoying troll on the forum, except my daily life is filled with a lot of conflict. Not even the fun kind, where debates and innovation occur. But the kind where the content is lost because everyone refuses to agree on basic context or language to have a discussion.

    When conflicts come up here, I am more likely to troll a troll than anyone I see using incorrect language or wrong information because I'm mature enough to know that I cannot change someone when they are set in their ways and incapable and unwilling to open their minds to another solution.

    Long story short, I try not to bang my head against a wall for no reason.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  2. #112
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The real "rigorous thinkers" understand that there's no point in pursuing a feminist movement anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Replace "rigorous" with "reactionary" and you're spot on.

    I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over on this forum, but I'll say it again anyway: radical feminism != all feminism, nor does it even represent a significant part. There are many types of feminism, and certain feminisms may conflict theoretically with other feminisms. There is no overarching theory of "feminism." And to suggest that there is such an overarching theory or standpoint, or that there is no need for feminism today, or that feminism = the radical, lesbian feminism of the more vocal variety is to label one's self as grossly ignorant on the subject, and therefore unqualified to speak about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I never suggested that feminism is completely encompassed by radical lesbian feminism. Sounds to me like you're just overly enthusiastic about going off on your moral high horse (ironically, a behavior which is not so foreign to most who claim to be "feminists").

    I simply meant to suggest that females are equal in today's society so much as they want to be equal, and it takes some sort of "rigorous" thinking to see that. Most "feminists" simply wish to victimize themselves by finding ways that they are not equal rather than by indirectly tackling any such notions via working independently from them. Feminists seem to think it's productive to beg for respect, pointedly remark on times when they are not treated with respect, and blame it on the fact that their lack of respect is due to deep-rooted societal notions on what a female ought to be. The only way for anybody, females included, to gain respect is to earn it, and if one earns respect, she'll get it, regardless of her gender.

    I've lived for nearly 22 years as a female, and I've never felt oppressed (at least not in this country) by the fact that I have a vagina. Here a woman is only oppressed insofar as she lets herself be oppressed; there are available opportunities for essentially everybody, and any lacking opportunities are not due to gender biases. An active feminist movement in America is outdated and redundant (regardless of where such movement falls on the radical scale), and until we let go of it, women will never realize that their problems have nothing to do with societal oppression and everything to do with their own frame of mind.
    tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

    What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?

    And, if by feminism, you mean advocacy for equal rights for women in today's society, then, no, it is not obsolete, unless you think of it in terms of a selfish, "I"-centered view, of white (or whatever other priviledged group you belong to) middle-class women in America. It'd be more accurate, to point out that in your tiny bubble of associations (your social position), it is obsolete.

    Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.

    There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be less rigorous with your inclusion criteria.

    So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.

  3. #113
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The real "rigorous thinkers" understand that there's no point in pursuing a feminist movement anymore.
    + 1

    Post it is

  4. #114
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w2
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

    What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?

    And, if by feminism, you mean advocacy for equal rights for women in today's society, then, no, it is not obsolete, unless you think of it in terms of a selfish, "I"-centered view, of white (or whatever other priviledged group you belong to) middle-class women in America. It'd be more accurate, to point out that in your tiny bubble of associations (your social position), it is obsolete.

    Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.

    There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be less rigorous with your inclusion criteria.

    So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.
    See? I agree haha.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  5. #115
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    See? I agree haha.
    I agree with your agreement. See?

  6. #116
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    I find it interesting that as alienated as xNTPs often find themselves in general society, that some find it difficult to put themselves in others' shoes who protest their own alienation, realizing that what may seem like nonsense complaint to some manifests itself as a life-defining reality to others.

    Tesla, how are you so certain that the problems of "women" (an incredibly large and diverse class of people) can be solved by a simple change in one's frame of mind? Not only that, but how exactly do you plan to enact this change? How does one let oneself be oppressed - isn't part of the definition of oppression that it is imposed upon by others?

  7. #117
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    tesla, you missed the main point Orangey was highlighting (see bolded), you again responded to her by talking of 'feminism' as if it is in one unifying term/ideology, when, in reality it is not the case.

    What exactly is this feminism that you talk of?
    I understood that she's arguing against the belief that there exists one narrow, all-encompassing feminist ideal. However, it's fair to assume that there actually is a very broad ideal (otherwise "feminism" as a word would have no real meaning), and that is for the equal position/treatment of women in today's society. The need for an active movement that pushes this is the movement that I find redundant. The feminism of which I speak is the feminism that seeks to have women treated equally in a society where they are largely treated equally and the feminism that seeks to blame female problems on the way in which society treats them.

    Those, like myself, who identify with certain feminist theories, are not just advocating for the rights of white middle-class women, but, women in all segments of our society. And, extending that bubble further, advocacy of women's rights internationally too, qualifies certain feminists theories today(even if I am sitting comfy in North America), and the need for such advocacy.
    I agree. I even explicitly limited my scope to a female's place in North American society. Obviously there are cultures outside of our little democratic bubble that oppress women, and I'm not blind to those.

    If we want to fight for the rights of the female gender, we should focus our energies on somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Sudan where women are indeed denied of basic human rights, not a place like the US where women are already free and equal. I'll stress again that I do not find feminist movements geared at countries like these to be redundant.

    There are still huge social barriers, with regards to women's rights, in certain African American communities, in Aboriginal communities, in immigrant populations, in low socio-economic communities, and yes, these are still ongoing, currently, in North America. You should be more rigorous with your inclusion criteria.
    I'd argue that such "barriers" in these communities are due to something other than just gender. Oppression may exist in certain ethnic, socio-economic, and minority subpopulations, but the driving force behind such oppression is not exclusively gender; it's because of race, economic standing, or cultural dissimilarities, or any of these things+gender, not exclusively gender. If we want to fight for equality, doing it based on gender is the wrong way to go about it, as there are much more expansive reasons for oppression and fighting these other causal factors would be a lot more productive.

    So, to paint all women in North America, by the white middle-class brush and then use that as the premise of why certain theories of feminism is obsolete as a whole, is, as Orangey pointed out, reactionary and short-sighted.
    I wasn't trying to paint the world with a white middle-class brush. Obviously that kind of view is narrow-minded and invalid. Quit using your ENTP brush to paint me with such hyperboles.

    Again, I stand by the claim that women are not oppressed directly because of their gender (at least not in the US). If they are oppressed, there's another more important causal factor, and that's what we should be focusing on. Fighting where there's no problem is futile and takes away from our ability to find the real problems and fight them.

    I mean can you seriously tell me that a woman in America is still treated as an inferior simply due to the fact that she's a woman?

  8. #118
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I find it interesting that as alienated as xNTPs often find themselves in general society, that some find it difficult to put themselves in others' shoes who protest their own alienation, realizing that what may seem like nonsense complaint to some manifests itself as a life-defining reality to others.

    Tesla, how are you so certain that the problems of "women" (an incredibly large and diverse class of people) can be solved by a simple change in one's frame of mind? Not only that, but how exactly do you plan to enact this change? How does one let oneself be oppressed - isn't part of the definition of oppression that it is imposed upon by others?
    If there is a woman in America who believes she is oppressed exclusively due to her gender, then I'm sorry that this oppression has defined her life in such a negative way. I'd like to speak with such a woman and figure out how it is that her gender is the limiting factor that takes away from her opportunities.

    There are serious measures in place in the US to protect women from oppression. Women who feel oppressed due to their gender are not actually oppressed due to their gender; they simply do not know how to use the tools at their disposal to fight such oppression.

    Oppression can be fought with a change in frame of mind if the oppression exists solely within our heads.

    Oh, and obviously I never meant to imply that all women in all walks of life are treated as equals. That would be an absurd notion to claim.

  9. #119
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    If there is a woman in America who believes she is oppressed exclusively due to her gender, then I'm sorry that this oppression has defined her life in such a negative way. I'd like to speak with such a woman and figure out how it is that her gender is the limiting factor that takes away from her opportunities.

    There are serious measures in place in the US to protect women from oppression. Women who feel oppressed due to their gender are not actually oppressed due to their gender; they simply do not know how to use the tools at their disposal to fight such oppression.
    The book "Nickled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich may be enlightening. It deals with the confluence of gender and class issues among the working classes in a way that helps demonstrate such things. Men don't have to feed their kids, women do, no matter how little money they make. Declining wages hit women particularly hard, since they simply can't take on the riskier jobs men do, lest they orphan their children. These are substantial problems that are inherently tied to gender, and will remain as such as long as women bear the largest portion of the responsibility of raising children.

    Oh, and obviously I never meant to imply that all women in all walks of life are treated as equals. That would be an absurd notion to claim.
    Very absurd.

  10. #120
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The book "Nickled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich may be enlightening. It deals with the confluence of gender and class issues among the working classes in a way that helps demonstrate such things. Men don't have to feed their kids, women do, no matter how little money they make. Declining wages hit women particularly hard, since they simply can't take on the riskier jobs men do, lest they orphan their children. These are substantial problems that are inherently tied to gender, and will remain as such as long as women bear the largest portion of the responsibility of raising children.
    Yeah I believe I've actually read excerpts from that book in a women's studies class, if my memory serves me right.

    Anyway, I'd argue that these problems are not due to the fact that the woman is a woman; they are due to the fact that the woman is from a poor socioeconomic background. We should be fighting socioeconomic gaps more than we should be fighting for woman's rights.

    A movement going on that seeks to minimize the hardships that single mothers face is fine and dandy (and this kind of feminism is cool, though I'm not sure it should be called feminism). A movement going on that seeks to have females treated as equals is pointless; we've been there and done that already, and we did it quite successfully.

    The claim I'm trying to make here is that oppression occurs, but oppression for being female does not, thus a feminist movement that fights against female oppression occurring exclusively due to the fact that a female is a female is redundant.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENTP] Can loudness really be classified as a personality trait?
    By PalebloodHunter in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-11-2017, 06:53 PM
  2. Female ESTP and Male ENTP
    By Poki in forum Intertype Relations
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 11-11-2015, 04:47 PM
  3. [ISFJ] ISFJ Personality Traits - What does an unhealthy ISFJ look like?
    By chatoyer in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 103
    Last Post: 10-22-2015, 09:23 AM
  4. Female INTP's personality traits thought of as negative by American Society
    By latentorganization in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-15-2010, 12:09 PM
  5. Personality traits most valued in your country?
    By autumn in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 10-29-2008, 10:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO