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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Well the concept of "race" is as a scientific category is rubbish and discredited, as there are more genetic differences within "races" than between them. In socieities more civilized than our own, someone's skin colour would be no more notable than hair colour, eye colour, height, etc., i.e. another simple physical feature.

    But our societies construct race as a social division, and therefore I am of a certain "race", or shall we say "ethnicity" ("race" is too much of a loaded term tied to pseudo-biological theories), because society classes me as one. there is no point ignoring this fact. We can fight to change it - in fact I think we should - but until it's changed, you're not racist for stating the fact. Nationality is also socially constructed, but it's not xenophobic to state that someone is Namibian.

    And yes, you probably need new friends
    I am in completely concurrence with everything you've said! (Are you a political science or anthropology enthusiast?) Regarding the bolded statement (emphasis mine), it's something that I think about too. It makes sense that humanity would be better off without those divisions, but it also stands to reason that they're not about to go away very quickly. Then and again, we have made substantial progress collectively over the generations, and there is no doubt in my mind that we will continue to do so. What I wonder is, to what extent can we truly influence this rate of progress?

  2. #42
    Senior Member GirlFromMars's Avatar
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    They have interesting logic, that's for sure.

    But more importantly, I don't think the way they spoke to you is cool at all. I would be hurt about that myself.
    INFP~ 4w5 ~ sx/sp ~ IEI ~ Libra

  3. #43
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    Secondly, isn't it interesting that someone who is competent and capable and appeals to white people is "white on the inside"?
    I would say it's not because he is competent and capable (he hasn't proved that competent in power!), but because of the interests he represents...
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I would say it's not because he is competent and capable (he hasn't proved that competent in power!), but because of the interests he represents...
    I meant as a person rather than as a President- he was accomplished at Harvard Law School and all that, yes? How do we measure the competency of a President? Personally I think that there are always greater forces at play that ultimately influence our evaluations of Presidents. I believe we will have to wait at least a decade from the end of his entire presidency before we can even try to come to a justified evaluation of his competency. But I digress.

    So enlighten me, what are "White interests"? I am genuinely interested in hearing your perspective and insights on the matter.

  5. #45
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I meant as a person rather than as a President- he was accomplished at Harvard Law School and all that, yes? How do we measure the competency of a President? Personally I think that there are always greater forces at play that ultimately influence our evaluations of Presidents. I believe we will have to wait at least a decade from the end of his entire presidency before we can even try to come to a justified evaluation of his competency. But I digress.
    Yes I guess he is competent in that sense. I agree with you really.

    So enlighten me, what are "White interests"? I am genuinely interested in hearing your perspective and insights on the matter
    I don't think there is really such a thing as "white interests" because I think it is ultimately class interests that are decisive. But I can see why many of Obama's black supporters accuse him of being a sellout - the US is a very racist country, statistically and historically black people are some of the worst off and have supported more redistributive policies.

    On the other hand Obama is part of the ruling class, which is overwhelmingly white, and he responds to the interests of Wall Street, which is overwhelmingly white, with a discourse which attempts to reconcile himself the white middle class, which is in its large majority white despite there being significant ethnic minority middle classes.

    So while Obama does not really represent "white" interests, but ruling class interests, (there are capitalists of all colours and every nation has its ruling class, while 2/3 of the poor in the US are white and the rgeat majority of white people are workers who get screwed over by the capitalists), I can see why many of his black supporters would frame their criticism in this way, because they see Obama as being too conservative, i.e. representative of the mianly white elite and with a discourse aimed at the maily white middle class.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #46
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    that's an interesting statement for so many reasons. Isn't it interesting, for example, that we refer to Obama as black when he's half-black, half-white? I'm not trying to argue that we shouldn't call him a black man, because that would be quite silly and troublesome (much like what feminists did/tried to do to language in the name of gender equality.)

    Secondly, isn't it interesting that someone who is competent and capable and appeals to white people is "white on the inside"? Whoever decided that? (I'm not saying there's anything wrong or racist about such a statement- it's ambiguous and people can choose to be offended if they want to be.) It's the same in Asia, too. It will be a long, long time before the century-old influence of colonialism and white superiority truly goes away.
    Ah, here's the Ti nitpickiness. If you understand what I said, do the words matter? Probably not since you understood it more than one way and cant figure out which way is the most likely for it to work.

    It is much easier to say 'white on the inside' 'black on the outside' to explain such things. I mean, as an NF male I'm female on the inside but male on the outside!

    There will always be divisions if people learn to associate certain looks to certain actions. Why do you think there are blond jokes? They don't cover ALL blonds, but in the joke, 'blond' refers to a specific kind of blond people recognize as 'blond acting.' Cant the same work with black? The only problem is: What is the person hearing the joke going to associate the term 'black' or 'white' or whatever with?



    Everyone knows Bush was white on the inside AND outside, and everyone I know knows that Bush was incompetent. So competence does not mean 'whiteness.' Hell, just look at all the poor presidents we've had in history, they all were white until President Obama came around (He's still white, just 'darker skin' - Why cant I use the term black like I can for brunette? Brunette is darker than blond, but black hair is blacker still. Could someone give me the 'official' terms for different shades of black?)
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  7. #47
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    Is your frustration not itself a failure at logic?

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't think there is really such a thing as "white interests" because I think it is ultimately class interests that are decisive. But I can see why many of Obama's black supporters accuse him of being a sellout - the US is a very racist country, statistically and historically black people are some of the worst off and have supported more redistributive policies.

    On the other hand Obama is part of the ruling class, which is overwhelmingly white, and he responds to the interests of Wall Street, which is overwhelmingly white, with a discourse which attempts to reconcile himself the white middle class, which is in its large majority white despite there being significant ethnic minority middle classes.

    So while Obama does not really represent "white" interests, but ruling class interests, (there are capitalists of all colours and every nation has its ruling class, while 2/3 of the poor in the US are white and the rgeat majority of white people are workers who get screwed over by the capitalists), I can see why many of his black supporters would frame their criticism in this way, because they see Obama as being too conservative, i.e. representative of the mianly white elite and with a discourse aimed at the maily white middle class.
    Agreed.

    I wonder though, if representing ruling class interests is something Obama chooses to do, or is forced to because of circumstances beyond his personal control as an individual? What would be the implications on Obama's presidency if he specifically chose NOT to represent ruling class interests, at all?

    I'm no politician, but sometimes I think maybe you might have to play along with the big boys if you want to get in deep enough to make a difference- realpolitik, if you will- but it's a very fine and difficult line to tread and I don't envy his position one bit.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    Ah, here's the Ti nitpickiness. If you understand what I said, do the words matter? Probably not since you understood it more than one way and cant figure out which way is the most likely for it to work.

    It is much easier to say 'white on the inside' 'black on the outside' to explain such things. I mean, as an NF male I'm female on the inside but male on the outside!
    Oh, don't worry- I knew exactly what you meant! I didn't mean to question what you were trying to say, I mentioned what I did as a sort of side-discussion rather than as a statement of confusion or attempt at nitpicking. I have a habit of digressing like that.. it's more of my hyperactive Ne than anything else that makes me go "isn't it interesting how..."

    And with regards to "the 'official' terms for different shades of black", I'm certain that even the black community itself is too divided on the matter to give you any semblance of an 'official' answer. So these things tend to get constructed by propaganda, influential schools of thought, the media... it's all really interesting. *goes off to think about it*

  10. #50
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    I totally agree. Especially when people never go to who has TIME to help, they go to the first complete ding dong they can get ahold of that likes to stand around and talk or follow someone's every hand movement with their eyes. (Ding dongs make imbeciles look smart by the way lol) I feel like I live in a cartoon pr Passions sometimes.

    entj

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