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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    That's a very interesting point you've raised.

    My perspective is that the separation isn't made, it is acknowledged. It already exists. France did away with racial identification on their IDs, but it doesn't change the fact that racism still exists there (and quite strongly so). It would be nice if we lived in a world where people never bothered to notice or care that other people looked different, but we don't.

    I suppose ultimately what I'm trying to say is that ignorance never really solves anything. At best, you could have an uneasy co-existence... which could be undermined by external forces or what-have-you. I think the same applies for parents who don't want to acknowledge that their children are growing up, or anything at all really.
    Sure. But where do you draw the line? Of course there is a difference between black and white people, or female and man? What about those in between, like Hispanics, or intersexed. And what exactly is a pure black man, or a 100% man. How advanced is our science to make sound decisions on these matters?

    Didn't we think the earth was flat as well, when we operated by observation. And later round, when we again operated by observation?

    So isn't our illusion of non ignorance, truly total ignorance?

    But as you say

    It would be nice if we lived in a world where people never bothered to notice or care that other people looked different, but we don't.
    I just wonder why. Does not make sense to me. And (S)ense is supposed to be my strong point.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    It would be nice if we lived in a world where people never bothered to notice or care that other people looked different, but we don't.
    Why? Noticing or caring about differences isn't a bad thing, in fact they can be a good thing, I for one appreciate diversity. Like you said in the op, simply noticing differences has nothing to do with discrimination.

  3. #33
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    I would sure be glad to notice a difference between firework shells--one that is whole, and the other which has gunpowder seeping out of it.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    Sure. But where do you draw the line? Of course there is a difference between black and white people, or female and man? What about those in between, like Hispanics, or intersexed. And what exactly is a pure black man, or a 100% man. How advanced is our science to make sound decisions on these matters?

    Didn't we think the earth was flat as well, when we operated by observation. And later round, when we again operated by observation?

    So isn't our illusion of non ignorance, truly total ignorance?

    But as you say; (quote) I just wonder why. Does not make sense to me. And (S)ense is supposed to be my strong point.
    I think you've got me a little wrong here. Observing differences shouldn't be about categorization, because as you've pointed out, there will always be people in the middle who defy it. Not everybody is completely male or female, gay or straight, black or white.

    Secondly, as you've pointed out again, observations may not always be accurate and are completely susceptible to human error. However, just because something doesn't have a 100% rate of success (nothing does) doesn't mean that it isn't useful or beneficial in some way. We used to think that illness could be cured by blood-letting, and we have since made progress and learnt about viruses and bacteria. We have still got a lot of it not-quite-right- Doctors are highly intelligent and educated humans but human nevertheless, often making errors of observation themselves. Medical malpractice can destroy lives; but would you honestly say that the world would be better off if doctors choose not to observe differences?

    Regarding your Earth flat/round analogy: We once thought the Earth was flat. To this day, we do not completely understand many things about the Earth- global warming, plate tectonics, the atmosphere, you name it. We once didn't know that CFCs had negative side-effects- it was the power of observation that eventually led us to stop (or at least cut down) on this pollution. We may never completely know everything about our planet, but surely it is better to try and observe it with the risk of getting it wrong, then to remain ignorant altogether?

    Let me share with you some of my personal experiences:

    I am an atheist myself but several of my friends are religious- some are Protestant, Catholic, Methodist and Anglican. Others are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist. How would you suggest I classify them? Should I pretend that there is no difference? Should I classify them "religious" and "non-religious"? Some people are slightly religious, some are superstitious. Being aware of these differences allows me to make sure that I know how to respond when something happens. There were some church bombings in Malaysia recently, and my religious friends have a wide range of different perspectives on the issue. Being aware and sensitive to their different religious sensitivities allows me to build deeper and more meaningful relationships with them than if I chose to be ignorant about their religions.

    "Why bother acknowledging these differences?" You might ask? Being aware of these differences has added value and quality to my life and to my relationships with these people. I could live my life forcibly ignorant about all these things, but being aware of them have allowed me to develop a deeper understanding of people, of social forces, of everything in general.

    Sometimes you hear about people who are handicapped or trans-gendered who say "I wish everyone would just treat me as if I were normal, like everybody else." I don't think the world works that way. You cannot ignore what makes you different or unique because it is a part of your identity. I have a close friend (I introduced him to this forum, he's Astroninja) who is Singaporean Chinese and most noticeably Albino. People stare at him everywhere he goes. Growing up looking different from everybody else must have been strange and difficult for him, but it is also a unique experience and he has learnt to embrace that difference as part of his very unique identity. He knows that he can't pretend that he isn't albino, and he doesn't want to either- so he embraces it. You will notice that he looks pretty cool in his display picture and it is quite a conversation starter. :P

    FINALLY: You ask why people choose to be observant rather than ignorant. It is really simple- natural selection. Over generations, observant people have survived better than ignorant ones. Your senses are attuned to observing differences; it is vital to survival. Our ancestors (that is, humans who survived long enough to reproduced) figured out that liquids that are discoloured or smell funny probably shouldn't be ingested. If something hurts, we should probably do something about it.

    Passing judgement about your observations, of course, is a whole different story. I might observe, for instance, that many terrorists are religiously motivated. I might also observe that I have several friends who are Muslim and deeply religious. It would not be COMPLETELY inaccurate to suggest that my Muslim friends are more likely to blow something up than my atheist friends, but it is a ridiculous gesture. Observing differences and making unfounded generalizations about said differences are two different things altogether.

    I imagine you would next ask about generalizations- People generalize because it is the easy and "safe" thing to do when it comes to short term self-interest. In the past, men that learnt to run away from what appeared to be harmful were more likely to survive than men who stuck around to find out for themselves. If it looks like a hungry lion, it probably is a hungry lion. Avoid. This caveman sort of thinking benefited cavemen in the past. But the human mind still hasn't evolved past it (if you think about it, the world's unique circumstances have only been in place for only a couple of hundred years), and it is not uncommon today for people to think "if he looks like a black man, he'll probably beat me up and take my money".

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Why? Noticing or caring about differences isn't a bad thing, in fact they can be a good thing, I for one appreciate diversity. Like you said in the op, simply noticing differences has nothing to do with discrimination.
    Agreed. I was just playing Devil's advocate for a moment there

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    I just wonder why. Does not make sense to me. And (S)ense is supposed to be my strong point.
    I hope this was meant to be a joke, because S-types are in no way more or less sensible than N-types. You do know what the S/N thing actually is about, right?

  7. #37
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    appreciate diversity
    To me, I think this is what defines racism versus just noticing that 'Hey that guy is black.'

    I do the latter because I just think black people are cool. The pride a lot of them have in their heritage is refreshing. Some black people are just 'white on the inside' but dark on the outside (like President Obama).

    It is a good thing to notice race in a positive way; a way that promotes trust in diversity. The racist is inherently distrustful of things/people they aren't sure of, or have 'learned' to relate it to certain behavior.

    A white man with a lot of tattoos reminds people of thugs and gangsters, it's the same principle in racism. 'That guy's black, that means he'll still mah daughter and mah chickens!' Ignorant, probably, but what if he grew up with news about black people stealing daughters and chickens? It's the way he learned, it may be ignorant in the big scheme of things, but really, in his area/situation it's the smart way to be. Most people learn not to let really tattooed guys with big muscles into their house for similar reasons.

    Too bad some people are ignorant to the point where they've never seen someone who is different, so they learn things from stories. Not all of them good.
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  8. #38
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    Well the concept of "race" is as a scientific category is rubbish and discredited, as there are more genetic differences within "races" than between them. In socieities more civilized than our own, someone's skin colour would be no more notable than hair colour, eye colour, height, etc., i.e. another simple physical feature.

    But our societies construct race as a social division, and therefore I am of a certain "race", or shall we say "ethnicity" ("race" is too much of a loaded term tied to pseudo-biological theories), because society classes me as one. there is no point ignoring this fact. We can fight to change it - in fact I think we should - but until it's changed, you're not racist for stating the fact. Nationality is also socially constructed, but it's not xenophobic to state that someone is Namibian.

    And yes, you probably need new friends
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  9. #39
    Junior Member TheGolfCourse's Avatar
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    Since I'm not in your situation I can laugh at it. It sucks for you, but it looks like the hamster took a day off from the wheel with some of them.
    The greatest revenge is living well.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    Some black people are just 'white on the inside' but dark on the outside (like President Obama).
    that's an interesting statement for so many reasons. Isn't it interesting, for example, that we refer to Obama as black when he's half-black, half-white? I'm not trying to argue that we shouldn't call him a black man, because that would be quite silly and troublesome (much like what feminists did/tried to do to language in the name of gender equality.)

    Secondly, isn't it interesting that someone who is competent and capable and appeals to white people is "white on the inside"? Whoever decided that? (I'm not saying there's anything wrong or racist about such a statement- it's ambiguous and people can choose to be offended if they want to be.) It's the same in Asia, too. It will be a long, long time before the century-old influence of colonialism and white superiority truly goes away.

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