[NT] INTP vs ENTP. War of objectivity!

[entropie]

This is a fool-hearty war...

Hope it doesnt become a rotten-pness war

 

[freeeekyyy]

All extraverted functions, by their very nature, are objective. All introverted functions are subjective. They work through a filter of some sort. ENTPs, being extraverts, dominate with an extraverted function. INTPs do not. That makes ENTPs more objective than INTPs.

 

[Andy]

All the types can potentially slip from objectivity. Function theory doesn't give a prediction as to which type is the most objective/smartest/coolest/best, and most arguments of that sort tend to degenerate into "my dad could beat up your dad" with unseemly speed.

What the theory can do is illustrate the ways in which each type is liable to fall from objectivity, if they do so at all. Consider INTPs. Yes, it's true that they have an introverted judging process as their prime function, but they also have an extroverted judging process in the inferior position. When they slip from objectivity, it will be because of that inferior Fe. Perhaps they throw out an idea because they don't like the person who invented it. Maybe they become distracted by some squable over who thought of what first, ignoring other matters that are more important. Perhaps they turn their backs on what is happening in the outside world to concentrate on some minute detail of academia while society goes to hell in rocket powered pram.

ENTPs have inferior Si. This can cause them to slip from objectivity by refusing to see that there might be a very good reason why something has always been done in a particular way. It can also cause them to promote dangerous causes of action, such as entering a product into general use before it has been tested properly, because they grow too impatient, or fail to see the need for such caution. They slip from objectivity because they fail to give the evidence enough consideration before acting, going with whatever they find most interesting instead.

It's possible to do this sort of analysis for all the types, and I think it is probably more enlightening than argueing over who has got the biggest... objectivity.

 

[entropie]

ENTPs have inferior Si. This can cause them to slip from objectivity by refusing to see that there might be a very good reason why something has always been done in a particular way. It can also cause them to promote dangerous causes of action, such as entering a product into general use before it has been tested properly, because they grow too impatient, or fail to see the need for such caution. They slip from objectivity because they fail to give the evidence enough consideration before acting, going with whatever they find most interesting instead.

Isnt the theme of subjectivity more related to sentences like "This plane is evil" or "Tho entropie already has ~10 k posts, he's still likely to be a member that gets banned" ?

I think, you gotta define the theme a bit more closer here. Not seeing why things have always been done a way or growing impatient about a product launch falls more into the department of dumbness for me

 

[Andy]

Isnt the theme of subjectivity more related to sentences like "This plane is evil" or "Tho entropie already has ~10 k posts, he's still likely to be a member that gets banned" ?

I think, you gotta define the theme a bit more closer here. Not seeing why things have always been done a way or growing impatient about a product launch falls more into the department of dumbness for me

I think there is a differance between being subjective and failing to be objective. One can adopt a subjective opinion on something but remain objective, as long as you don't loose sight of the fact that your opinion is subjective. Kind of like saying "Some people might like that, but it's not for me" rather than thinking "I don't like that, so therefore no-one can."

Remaining objective means being able to see past ones own personal preferances. An ENTP looses that to poor Si when they start to think that their own preferance for the new and shiny must extend to everyone else, and anyone who disagrees is a dumbass. Actually, that process probably involves a bit of frustration driven poor Fe as well, but as they say, functions never entirely operate in isolation!

 

[Robopop]

All the types can potentially slip from objectivity. Function theory doesn't give a prediction as to which type is the most objective/smartest/coolest/best, and most arguments of that sort tend to degenerate into "my dad could beat up your dad" with unseemly speed.

What the theory can do is illustrate the ways in which each type is liable to fall from objectivity, if they do so at all. Consider INTPs. Yes, it's true that they have an introverted judging process as their prime function, but they also have an extroverted judging process in the inferior position. When they slip from objectivity, it will be because of that inferior Fe. Perhaps they throw out an idea because they don't like the person who invented it. Maybe they become distracted by some squable over who thought of what first, ignoring other matters that are more important. Perhaps they turn their backs on what is happening in the outside world to concentrate on some minute detail of academia while society goes to hell in rocket powered pram.

ENTPs have inferior Si. This can cause them to slip from objectivity by refusing to see that there might be a very good reason why something has always been done in a particular way. It can also cause them to promote dangerous causes of action, such as entering a product into general use before it has been tested properly, because they grow too impatient, or fail to see the need for such caution. They slip from objectivity because they fail to give the evidence enough consideration before acting, going with whatever they find most interesting instead.

It's possible to do this sort of analysis for all the types, and I think it is probably more enlightening than argueing over who has got the biggest... objectivity.

This rite heya.

 

[InvisibleJim]

It depends, cognitive functions say objective = observe environment, subjective = observe internal mind. The traditional definition of 'this person is being objective' and 'this person is being subjective' do not apply on the type context. By definition, all types are as 'objective' as others based upon their experiences.

 

[rickyricardosaid]

What you have written has shown you are failing to understand the test. The test scores you so low on E/I because it's saying it is only 1% sure that you are one or the other, not that you are a 1% introvert or extrovert. You have answered the questions in an ambivalent/even manner and the course of action for you to take after that is independent research to determine your type. It's a common mistake people make, but it is a mistake.

That wasnt what I was trying to say;
maybe your not understanding me correctly...
What Im trying to do is find out if I am really a border line E/I
and yes I know how the test works but thankyou anyways

how do do you know I failed to understand? (explain your logic with out bias)
there's 2 versions of the test a longer one with more details and a shorter one. Witch one are you talking about?

I still disagree with what you said, about me doing it wrong for the time being...I already did my research and I found an equal amount of characteristics of my personality traits for INTP and ENTP I wouldn't say anything unless Ive done extensive research on it but thanks anyways...

I dont think you know every one that has taken the test to make that presumption, I think you speak from your own experience and the matter at hand just shows that maybe when you or the people you know could've been "ambivalent/even" in taking the test; from my experience Ive noticed extroverts are very projective...

I think Im the exception and still consider my self a boder line I/E; I for one always think differently when Im alone then when Im around people I feel engaged and my thought process is just a ted bit different....

I said it before and Ill say it again your making to much of an assumption you dont have enough facts to even come close to the things your assuming... you have to gather up concret facts and statistics, if you wanna convince me that I took the test wrong...(Is it worth the effort?)

an easier solution would be to agree that we disagree with each other but thats up to you... I enjoy learning something new; mistakes can be good sometimes.

 

[theadoor]

Percieving things in a seemingly objective manner is actually making up a subjective, most definitely not entirely true image of another reality(ies) or perceptions of it. If I stick to my definition of objective, then I would guess INTPs could be better at doing it. However, I believe ENTPs are more likely to reveal their objectivism in public whereas INTPs tend not to speak up their ideas and opinions that much if it's not neccessary.

 

[Oberon]

The INTP may come the closest of all the types to true objectivity, but this objectivity will not be perfect. Moreover, the INTP will be completely blind to any flaws in his/her objectivity absent a lengthy process of self-discovery.

The ENTP will be less objective, but more aware of it... and won't care.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

In my experience with an ENTX, they aren't very concerned with truth and objectivity. Even after I researched it, they still argued that soft serve ice-cream was 90% (or sometimes 80%) pigs fat, for example.

 

[Wonkavision]

Well, since my thread was chucked into the graveyard, I guess I'll just have to ressurect THIS one.

I'll admit, this one's a lot more civil than mine, but at the same time, it's even MORE revealing of how conceited and deluded people can be about their objectivity.

 

[Lenian]

This one has to do with a number of things IMHO.

This is more determined by brains-how well one evaluates something or objectifies it.

Also, the ENTP is the least likely of all types to go along with something because the crowd is.

Most INTPs I know of have a sort of inner hostility...not to say this is a type thing..No. With this in mind, I would imagine the ENTP, who is not angrily frustrated with expressing themselves, yet rather upbeat and calm about things in general, would be plenty capable of evaluating something objectively and with little bias therein.

But I don't know many INTPs so your question remains a good one.

 

[freeeekyyy]

This one has to do with a number of things IMHO.

This is more determined by brains-how well one evaluates something or objectifies it.

Also, the ENTP is the least likely of all types to go along with something because the crowd is.

Most INTPs I know of have a sort of inner hostility...not to say this is a type thing..No. With this in mind, I would imagine the ENTP, who is not angrily frustrated with expressing themselves, yet rather upbeat and calm about things in general, would be plenty capable of evaluating something objectively and with little bias therein.

But I don't know many INTPs so your question remains a good one.

I think I'm going to agree with this though, but also reiterate what I said earlier. Ne is objective by it's very nature. All extraverted functions are. That's what makes them extraverted, they focus outwardly on the object rather than subjective, inward ideas. INTPs, being introverts, have an introverted, subjective function as their dominant. So do INTJs and every other introverted type. ENTPs are by definition more objective than INTPs. Seems simple to me.

 

[Kenneth Almighty]

I think I'm going to agree with this though, but also reiterate what I said earlier. Ne is objective by it's very nature. All extraverted functions are. That's what makes them extraverted, they focus outwardly on the object rather than subjective, inward ideas. INTPs, being introverts, have an introverted, subjective function as their dominant. So do INTJs and every other introverted type. ENTPs are by definition more objective than INTPs. Seems simple to me.

How is Ne objective? It doesn't process information, it simply generates it. That's why you need Ti, to cull the heard so that you can move towards that idea logically. In that way both ENTPs and INTPs would be equal because it's the combination of Ti and Ne that allows both types to scan a situation then see if it's coherent. Ne is haphazard.

If you're trying to find objectivity you might want to look in the direction of the inferior functions. An ENTPs Fe would cause them to look at all sides of a people issue.

 

[freeeekyyy]

How is Ne objective? It doesn't process information, it simply generates it. That's why you need Ti, to cull the heard so that you can move towards that idea logically. In that way both ENTPs and INTPs would be equal because it's the combination of Ti and Ne that allows both types to scan a situation then see if it's coherent. Ne is haphazard.

If you're trying to find objectivity you might want to look in the direction of the inferior functions. An ENTPs Fe would cause them to look at all sides of a people issue.

You're right, it doesn't judge. It perceives, objectively. Just as Se perceives, so does Ne. At least, according to my understanding of it. I think it might be a difference of definitions here. When I say objective, I only mean it in the simplest definition of the word. It is objective in that it looks at what is outside of it. Ti uses knowledge that it already has gained, either from Ne, or Se, or whatever other means. At least, that's how I've seen it. I'm sure a Ti-dom such as yourself probably has a better idea of how the function operates.

 

[visaisahero]

I have lots of INTP and ENTP friends, and there is no clear or definite pattern between their types and objectivity. If you ask to to sort out the people I know in order of objectivity, the most objective ones are those who:

- have the most life experience
- are intimately acquainted with their own failings and limitations
- spend time and energy observing and reflecting themselves and others

I personally think it has much more to do with discipline and a willingness to evaluate and criticize oneself than any particular function. We're in the realms of character, not personality.

Asking whether the ENTP or INTP is more objective is like asking whether a chaingun or a sniper rifle is more likely to hit a target. The ENTPs hit a broader area, the INTPs make cleaner and more decisive hits. At the end of the day, what's important is not the weapon, but the skill of the marksman. A skilled chaingunner will do more damage than an inept sniper, and vice versa.

Such is my opinion!

 

[Kenneth Almighty]

You're right, it doesn't judge. It perceives, objectively. Just as Se perceives, so does Ne. At least, according to my understanding of it. I think it might be a difference of definitions here. When I say objective, I only mean it in the simplest definition of the word. It is objective in that it looks at what is outside of it. Ti uses knowledge that it already has gained, either from Ne, or Se, or whatever other means. At least, that's how I've seen it. I'm sure a Ti-dom such as yourself probably has a better idea of how the function operates.

Believe it or not when I was writing that I was thinking that you could be right It's true that Ti would work simply within the framework of experience. It's just that INTPs would be more prone to be logical about it, even though they might not make perceiving their number one priority. The inferior Si of an ENTP would cause it to miss the real life experience needed to get a decent grip of a situation.

As for Ti-dom I try not to make it a habit, as you have seen. Failing miserably.

 

[Kenneth Almighty]

Or just listen to the ENTP

 

[visaisahero]

Believe it or not when I was writing that I was thinking that you could be right It's true that Ti would work simply within the framework of experience. It's just that INTPs would be more prone to be logical about it, even though they might not make perceiving their number one priority. The inferior Si of an ENTP would cause it to miss the real life experience needed to get a decent grip of a situation.

As for Ti-dom I try not to make it a habit, as you have seen. Failing miserably.

Something about this kind of reasoning bothers me. Just because INTPs might be more prone to being logical does not necessarily mean that they ARE more logical. Preference cannot and should not be confused with aptitude! I know of an INTP whose Fe is better developed than an ENFJ's, for example.

Michael Phelps might prefer swimming to running, and I prefer running to swimming, yet I'm willing to bet that Mr. Phelps would outrun me any day. Such is life.