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  1. #81
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    The ISTP I call one of my best pals sometimes makes 'objective' decisions, based on Se, which are incorrect because they fail to take into account lots of intuitive information; I do the same in reverse sometimes.
    Hmm, quick question... Does objective mean accurate? I'm assuming it does not (because, as a result, the real question would be "who has the most information to make a decision".)

  2. #82
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Not interested in juggling semantics with you.
    Would you please spell out your rationale for reducing Randomnity's objection to mere semantics?

    I apologize if you felt offended.
    Would you please point out where Randomnity wrote something to indicate that she had taken offense?

  3. #83
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, quick question... Does objective mean accurate? I'm assuming it does not (because, as a result, the real question would be "who has the most information to make a decision".)
    Well I just meant to point out that neither Se nor Ne give anyone an advantage on being objective, because both 'perception methods' are as prone to inaccuracy as each other, and as I also said, all types have some kind of inferior function related pitfall that will threaten their objectivity in many cases unless they're very disciplined.

    I think the idea of objectivity (in the 'internal' NT ideal, or doctrine, you might say) is that it's supposed to increase the chances of accuracy. Or rather, to decrease the chances of the kind of inaccuracy that results from incorrect or inappropriate/irrelevant prejudices/expectations. Whether this works or not, is what we're discussing... I think...
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  4. #84
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Why the political correctness? If you feel that ST types should be included in a discussion of rationalism/objectivity, explain why rather than just complaining that they aren't, please?

    They were specifically trying to figure out which NT's were most objective. (And they weren't even sure if they mean objective, logical, or rational, so that was an issue as well.) I don't think anyone would argue that in many (if not most) situations, an S can be more objective than any N because they look at exactly what they see rather than inferring a pattern, and have slightley fewer cognitive filters applied to their sensory process (with the possible exception of memory). However, in some situations an S could be too predisposed to focus on past experiences or how things appear on the surface rather than looking "beyond" the surface to see that things are different than they seem.

    ST objectivity -- Sees things as they are, doesn't try to fit them into anything, doesn't try to form connections from what it sees, reports it accurately.

    NT objectivity -- Looks directly at patterns/ideas as they are, is better at aligning things with the idea in an objective manner, without allowing the exact nature of it to interfere with the understanding of its relationship to the idea.

  5. #85
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    I can see what you're saying. However, I don't think what you're seeing there is a difference in decision making processes - more in the perception part.
    I think this is an interesting point.

    In terms of perceptual placement, the ISTPs I've met have always put very specific definition to maintaining a detached perspective until they feel sufficiently confident that their observations can be ascribed to falsifiable environmental variables. I've noticed a certain vigor that some ISTPs emote when they finalize a decision and are able to accord their ideas to a chained pattern of events. Kind of like a Eureka! moment.

    It can be somewhat startling!

  6. #86
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Would you please spell out your rationale for reducing Randomnity's objection to mere semantics?

    Would you please point out where Randomnity wrote something to indicate that she had taken offense?
    No.

    I'm not interested in pursuing this further. Miscommunication seems the key element that led to our disagreement.

  7. #87
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Rational -- To base one's decisions on what would be considered by most people to be acceptable criteria for a long-term decision, especially one that affects/involves more than one person. A society or business might be good example.
    In which case, NT would be naturally superior to ST when it comes to rationalism, going by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200
    NT objectivity -- Looks directly at patterns/ideas as they are, is better at aligning things with the idea in an objective manner, without allowing the exact nature of it to interfere with the understanding of its relationship to the idea.
    SP's aren't exactly well-known for their long-sighted vision and big-picture planning

    So actually at the moment I'm beginning to see a good distinction coming along here - ST's being more naturally objective, with NT's more rational. Maybe. If we're talking about the 'judgemental objectivity' I defined earlier, as opposed to 'perceptional objectivity'... I'd say yeah, ST's for the former, but all are equal in the latter.
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  8. #88
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I think the idea of objectivity (in the 'internal' NT ideal, or doctrine, you might say) is that it's supposed to increase the chances of accuracy. Or rather, to decrease the chances of the kind of inaccuracy that results from incorrect or inappropriate/irrelevant prejudices/expectations. Whether this works or not, is what we're discussing... I think...
    If we are talking about prejudice and just what MBTI measures, I don't see how N could be considered as objective - or would you argue that abstract, imaginative, conceptual, theoretical and original thinking would be as objective as their counterparts?

    To give an example, the first pages involved arguing from theory that INTPs > ENTPs because functional dominance plays a role. Do you believe that is objective thinking?

  9. #89
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    would you argue that abstract, imaginative, conceptual, theoretical and original thinking would be as objective as their counterparts?
    Yes, I would

    To give an example, the first pages involved arguing from theory that INTPs > ENTPs because functional dominance plays a role. Do you believe that is objective thinking?
    No, I don't. That's what I've been saying (that I don't think it is). Or so I thought anyway...
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  10. #90
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In which case, NT would be naturally superior to ST when it comes to rationalism, going by this:



    So actually at the moment I'm beginning to see a good distinction coming along here - ST's being more naturally objective, with NT's more rational. Maybe. But not necessarily, if we're talking about the 'judgemental objectivity' I defined earlier, as opposed to 'perceptional objectivity', in which case both ST's and NT's are equal (and I think all other types too).
    I think it depends on the internal digestive process, once the information has been incorporated. I've noticed that STs seem quite good at expressing their logical plans, once they've decided how to move.

    A lack of impulsivity with processed data alongside a reliance on personal experience as the critical negotiator seems approximate to what I've observed - I think this combination makes the ST resourceful, yet committed to their original schematics.

    Reliability of data input appears chief among ST concerns.

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