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  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Keep in mind that the Fe follows as an entailment of Thinking. The INTP will first do dispassionate reasoning, and then the negative feelings will follow. Therefore this does not detract from objectivity.
    Okay, but once the negative feelings begin to flow, they then impinge on most of the thinking that follows, that's what I'm saying. And INTP is oblivious to it... I remember one INTP I knew being this way, and denying it to the death, so we actually video'd him secretly one time when he was debating, and played it back to him. He cringed in embarrassment because he could see he'd been quite unreasonable and irrational once he got to a point where he was 'losing', but he was accusing the rest of us of doing it.

    You seem to be confusing appearance for essence. You not noticing the objectivity of an INTP does not imply non-existence thereof.
    Well, I wouldn't say that... I know that feeling, it happens with me a lot, that I'm displaying emotions that people wrongly attribute my words to, when in fact I'm aware of the feelings and consciously blocking them out from my decision process even while I'm displaying them. I believe I've said before that this has created problems sometimes between me and the types of people who say 'It's not what you say, but how you say it that matters', because with me, in fact, how I say it can be completely irrelevant. Edit - but Fe is tertiary to me (supposedly), whilst it's inferior to the INTP. So maybe I'm just that little bit more in control of the feeling process when stressed, than INTP.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    :Bluewing, I take your point on logic being immaculate though expression of it isn't..
    I don't understand. Isnt the objective one who thinks clearly, and not one who leads others to believe he is a clear thinker? We have here, the typical extroverted problem of confusion of appearance for essence. Virtue in itself does not require external affirmation for legitimation. Or in other words, if you are good, that is all that matters. You do not become any more or less proficient by others recognizing your merit.


    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    :The Si to ENTP antsy. hmm. Gotta think of that and get back. (My first response was "ENTPs get antsy?", but nevermind) But I'd love to hear an INTP truth of it.
    The problem for the ENTP is the same Fe problem as is for the INTP, though more significant because Fe is stronger for the ENTP, and Ti is weaker.

    In regards to Si, the ENTP may doubt his competence because of his inability to get his 'facts straight'. Though the main problem remains with the tertiary Fe, as it is antithetical to their objective function-Ti.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Okay, but once the negative feelings begin to flow, they then impinge on most of the thinking that follows, that's what I'm saying. And INTP is oblivious to it... I remember one INTP I knew being this way, and denying it to the death, so we actually video'd him secretly one time when he was debating, and played it back to him. He cringed in embarrassment because he could see he'd been quite unreasonable and irrational once he got to a point where he was 'losing', but he was accusing the rest of us of doing it.



    Well, I wouldn't say that... I know that feeling, it happens with me a lot, that I'm displaying emotions that people wrongly attribute my words to, when in fact I'm aware of the feelings and consciously blocking them out from my decision process even while I'm displaying them. I believe I've said before that this has created problems sometimes between me and the types of people who say 'It's not what you say, but how you say it that matters', because with me, in fact, how I say it can be completely irrelevant. Edit - but Fe is tertiary to me (supposedly), whilst it's inferior to the INTP. So maybe I'm just that little bit more in control of the feeling process when stressed, than INTP.
    For a stressed INTP there is much less to control because Feeling plays a significantly smaller role. This gives the INTP an edge over the ENTP.

    You'd have to go back to make sure that character was an INTP, as caring to 'win' the argument tends to be antithetical to the INTPs radically introverted approach to ideas. (Only inner purpose matters).

    Generally, the case with inferior Fe is that the negative feelings follow the emculately logical argument. Superficial readers of INTP's work do not pay attention to his reasoning, but only to his emoting. Thus they assume that just because his attitude towards the matter is negative, his reasoning must also be. Such a conclusion is illegitimate because the reasoning was not examined.

    The Fe also tends to be expressed very subtly, therefore situations germane to the one you're describing tend to be rare. You dont find INTPs lose their temper very often.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In regards to Si, the ENTP may doubt his competence because of his inability to get his 'facts straight'. Though the main problem remains with the tertiary Fe, as it is antithetical to their objective function-Ti.
    Aha, I think you have a very good point there about Si - that is something that troubles me sometimes.

    I don't agree with your interpretation of the Ti/Fe relationship in ENTP's - I think that the stronger Fe actually compensates for the weaker Ti, in giving ENTP greater awareness and control over the Feeling process.

    But what I meant to say also was that whilst I agree with your statement about me not noticing a process not meaning it's not happening - well, the same applies to INTP doesn't it? Just because they don't notice that they've become gripped by inferior Fe, doesn't mean it's not happening

    You'd have to go back to make sure that character was an INTP, as caring to 'win' the argument tends to be antithetical to the INTPs radically introverted approach to ideas. (Only inner purpose matters).
    Again, you're talking about an INTP in perfect 'health' and at full potential. I don't think the reality often bears any resemblance to this theory... in fact I think there was a thread over at INTPc devoted to just that question, which was very interesting!
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Aha, I think you have a very good point there about Si - that is something that troubles me sometimes.

    I don't agree with your interpretation of the Ti/Fe relationship in ENTP's - I think that the stronger Fe actually compensates for the weaker Ti, in giving ENTP greater control over the Feeling process.

    But what I meant to say also was that whilst I agree with your statement about me not noticing a process not meaning it's not happening - well, the same applies to INTP doesn't it? Just because they don't notice that they've become gripped by inferior Fe, doesn't mean it's not happening



    Again, you're talking about an INTP in perfect 'health' and at full potential. I don't think the reality often bears any resemblance to this theory... in fact I think there was a thread over at INTPc devoted to just that question, which was very interesting!

    Because Fe plays a greater role in ENTPs (healthy or unhealthy), it follows that value judgments will be more significant in his thought. The ENTP operates primarily by Intuition. Thus, he choses to incorporate both Thinking and Feeling into his vision. Therefore, there is much less of a direct effort to establish a predominance of Thinking over Feeling. The ENTP seems to welcome the direct input of Feeling. Whilst the INTP operates primarily on Thinking, Intuition is a serf.
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  6. #36
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    [QUOTE=substitute;73768]Aha, I think you have a very good point there about Si - that is something that troubles me sometimes.

    I don't agree with your interpretation of the Ti/Fe relationship in ENTP's - I think that the stronger Fe actually compensates for the weaker Ti, in giving ENTP greater awareness and control over the Feeling process.

    But what I meant to say also was that whilst I agree with your statement about me not noticing a process not meaning it's not happening - well, the same applies to INTP doesn't it? Just because they don't notice that they've become gripped by inferior Fe, doesn't mean it's not happening



    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Again, you're talking about an INTP in perfect 'health' and at full potential. I don't think the reality often bears any resemblance to this theory... in fact I think there was a thread over at INTPc devoted to just that question, which was very interesting!

    Nonetheless, take an ordinary ENTP, and an ordinary INTP. The latter will have more tendencies towards inner purpose. Therefore be less concerned than the ENTP with winning the approval of others. So, no, that assessment was not specific to sound INTPs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Because Fe plays a greater role in ENTPs (healthy or unhealthy), it follows that value judgments will be more significant in his thought. The ENTP operates primarily by Intuition. Thus, he choses to incorporate both Thinking and Feeling into his vision.
    I agree with the second part - that Feeling is incorporated, but I don't think that automatically means the first part is true about making value judgements necessarily compromising objectivity. Just because Feeling is incorporated, it doesn't mean it's the ENTP's own feelings - just the human factor, generally. It's taken into account in ENTP's argument much more than INTP. This could simply mean having a greater diversity of facts at ENTP's fingertips.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Nonetheless, take an ordinary ENTP, and an ordinary INTP. The latter will have more tendencies towards inner purpose. Therefore be less concerned than the ENTP with winning the approval of others. So, no, that assessment was not specific to sound INTPs.
    Exactly. That inner purpose can interfere just as much with objectivity as external 'image' concerns. They both create a 'prior agenda' which will interfere.

    Anyway I've gotta get to work lol I'll check back later


    EDIT - In case I'm misconstrued, what I'm actually thinking is that both ENTP and INTP are about even, all things considered. I'm just y'know, considering all things here (trying to!).
    Last edited by substitute; 11-16-2007 at 08:26 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I agree with the second part - that Feeling is incorporated, but I don't think that automatically means the first part is true about making value judgements necessarily. Just because Feeling is incorporated, it doesn't mean it's the ENTP's own feelings - just the human factor, generally. It's taken into account in ENTP's argument much more than INTP. This could simply mean having a greater diversity of facts at ENTP's fingertips. :
    Feeling is necessarily a hindrance because it is antithetical to Thinking.



    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Exactly. That inner purpose can interfere just as much with objectivity as external 'image' concerns. They both create a 'prior agenda' which will interfere.:
    No it wouldnt, because it is a property of Thinking, and therefore impersonally founded. The more the INTP introverts, the more impersonal he becomes by contrast to your clause. As here we equate the inner purpose with the pure essence of objectivity.(That is because the more the INTP introverts, the more into the T essence he goes)
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is a subject that first came about around a year ago or so for me.
    I was trying to determine what would be the most objective type in the MBTI, and I felt confident in my accuracy when I decided that NTP would be more objective than any other three letters(to which I had some agreement from others that I know).

    But I was then forced to determine if the ENTP or the INTP would be more objective, and I have been uncertain to this day.
    The INTP could be assumed more subjective because of their rather self-contained means of thinking. We could argue that you'd need to pay more attention to the outer world to be objective, like an ENTP.

    But look at it this way...

    The ENTP gets much more caught up in the events around it. What I'm getting at here, is that you can sometimes be so deep in something that you lose sight of it. The INTP has the advantage of the "man from mars" effect. Social pressure and engineering should not have much affect on an INTP, where as they should on an ENTP.


    In general, one might still be conceptually leaning toward the ENTP on this, but my question is also partly based on personal experience.
    In my experience, the INTPs have been more objective than the ENTPs.
    Is that just a fluke?

    I guess the first function could make no difference at all, resulting in a tie.
    I've always assumed ENTJ's were the most objective. If you presume INTP's really had a dominant T despite testing as P's, then they would probably be as objective (or at least as logical) or more so. ENTP's are probably more adaptable, but less purely logical. But what they lose in pure logic, they make up for in perceptiveness and adaptability. Of course, remember logically consistent doesn't always mean objective/true, and the question becomes harder to answer, since it's possible that an ENTP might be more faithful to the emerging pattern, without being constrained by their prior understanding of logic.

    Anyway, this J/P "switch" for introverts you discuss is contested in Socionics vs MBTI discussions. In Socionics, Ti/Ne is INTj (LII), and Ni/Te is INTp (ILI). It's based on Jungian theory, but its so different from MBTI that the tests somehow give people different types than they should have in MBTI. In fact, according to one source, the types only correlate in 30% of cases. Anyway, it's closer to the essence of the Jungian idea of Rationality/Irrationality than MBTI's interpretation.

    If you're interested:

    Socionics in the West

    The 'Socionics, Mentology and Personality Psychology' journal. Issue 1/2007

    http://www.the16types.info/

    SOCIONICS: Personality Types and Relationships

  10. #40
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    Nifty -- it only took 39 posts for a non ENTP/INTP/INTJ to enter the lion's den.

    *applause*
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