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  1. #211
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    /* This script written by Nocapszy on 11/18/2007
    This script proves conclusively beyond all shadow of doubt, logically, that INTPs are not more objective simply because they have thinking as their strongest preference
    This script is not for use in a real build. It's just illustrating a concept...
    */


    #define Thinking (logic)
    #define Objective (unbiased)
    #define ePerceptions (object oriented)

    main()
    {

    if Thinking == Objective
    {
    T is the objective trait;
    INTP is the objective temperament;
    }
    else
    {
    T is not the objective trait;
    INTP is not the only objective temperament;
    }



    if ePerceptions != bias+personal
    extraverted perceptions are not biases
    else
    extraverted perceptions are biases

    }
    Go back and re-read post 192.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #212
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Go back and re-read post 192.
    Impossible.

  3. #213
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Go back and re-read post 192.
    Impossible.
    Posts can indeed be re-read. Messages in here don't work like the mission briefings in Mission Impossible. It also saves space when not everything has to be replied to each person individually.

  4. #214
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Posts can indeed be re-read. Messages in here don't work like the mission briefings in Mission Impossible. It also saves space when not everything has to be replied to each person individually.
    No I mean I can't reread it because I didn't read it in the first place.

  5. #215
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    No I mean I can't reread it because I didn't read it in the first place.
    Well then, go read it, whether it's for the first time or a review, silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Santuu
    The last point was humorously portrayed in a season 1 Star Trek:TOS episode I recently watched, The Galileo Seven. Spock and his landing party were stranded on a planet, Scotty trying to fix their shuttle and the whole party being harassed by large humanoids native to the planet. On the top of it, everybody was getting angry about the lack of personel management skills on Spocks part.

    Spock had decided that the most effective way to deter the humanoids would be to display their strength by phaser fire; make them respect them. A rational creature would accurately evaluate the landing party as something dangerous, and thus avoid it for reasons of self-preservation.

    Of course the plan back-fired catastrophically. The creatures gathered in a big group and attacked the shuttle with spears and rocks. While the humanoids were pounding the shuttle with 300-pound boulders, McCoy snapped at mr. Spock for the failed plan.

    McCoy: "Well Mr.Spock, they didn't stay frightened very long, did they?"
    Spock:"Most illogical reaction. We demonstrated our superior weapons, they should have fled!"
    McCoy:"You mean they should have respected us?"
    Spock:"Of course!"
    McCoy:"Mr.Spock, respect is a rational process! Did it ever occur to you that they might react emotionally, with anger?"
    Spock:"Doctor, I'm not responsible for their unpredictability."

    So yes, I consider F something where you should be objective as well to be most objective as a person. Given only one of the two, I'd go with T to be most objective, though.
    Would you say that Spock's decisions were usually objective as well as logical?

    I remember that there was also a scene (perhaps in a different episode) in which a number of crew members wanted to risk their lives to bury a dead member of the crew. Spock thought it was illogical, and wanted to leave him behind. Interestingly, I agreed with his choice rather than the one of the crew members, which seemed to border on total insanity to me. I would have claimed that it was out of concern for the people who were still alive, believing they were more valuable than the dead because something could still be done to help them. I would have used emotions such as fear and concern to come to a similar choice. I was thinking to myself, "Why do a kindness for someone who can no longer feel gratefulness/suffering, or return the favor?" What does that mean?

    Anyway, do you think there is a way of determining if someone is able to distinguish objective from subjective in a particular situation?

  6. #216
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    No I mean I can't reread it because I didn't read it in the first place.
    Why didn't you just stay quiet and maintain the impression that you've given this thread a even a bit more attention than just a passing glance? We try to avoid unneeded repetition in here to the best of our abilities so as to respect each other's valuable time and to promote a better atmosphere for discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    #define Thinking (logic)
    #define Objective (unbiased)
    #define ePerceptions (object oriented)

    if Thinking == Objective
    {
    T is the objective trait;
    INTP is the objective temperament;
    }
    else
    {
    T is not the objective trait;
    INTP is not the only objective temperament;
    }
    The real challenge in here would be to define the equality operator and the two types so as to make the comparison possible, so nothing has been accomplished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    if ePerceptions != bias+personal
    extraverted perceptions are not biases
    else
    extraverted perceptions are biases
    Thanks for the pseudo-tautologies.

  7. #217
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Would you say that Spock's decisions were usually objective as well as logical?
    Only if disregarding the feeling judgement of the situation. One could of course argue that Spock was being an example in logic, and that everything would have been fine if the others would have just done the same.

    (Situation is similar to asking N not to be N, but to be S instead.)

    This approach got the crew into troubles, as the crew was unable to eradicate their feeling to the extent Mr.Spock desired. Feeling judgement actually has some merits which Spock is famously unable to realize. The solution is thus not to dismiss feeling, but to take it into account to some extent.

    In addition to being objective, there are other motivations for considering or dismissing feeling judgement. It's sometimes hard to tell what motivations are affecting people in different situations. I sometimes make a point in presenting myself as calm and unemotional, so as to show that people don't necessarily have to experience negative emotions in a challenging situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I remember that there was also a scene (perhaps in a different episode) in which a number of crew members wanted to risk their lives to bury a dead member of the crew. Spock thought it was illogical, and wanted to leave him behind. Interestingly, I agreed with his choice rather than the one of the crew members, which seemed to border on total insanity to me. I would have claimed that it was out of concern for the people who were still alive, believing they were more valuable than the dead because something could still be done to help them. I would have used emotions such as fear and concern to come to a similar choice. I was thinking to myself, "Why do a kindness for someone who can no longer feel gratefulness/suffering, or return the favor?" What does that mean?
    Spock's thinking and your feeling processes mirror each other in here.

    I think it's natural that societies tend towards results that take into account all parties to some extent. Rational thought can be emotionally motivated, and feelings can be the result of what is rational.

    The idea of death can be handled with feeling, which serves to keep the person alive. The same effect could be accomplished with calculating one's own value of life in some currency, like we did in Pt's risk thread. Yet, in the end, the "value of life" would be based on our "meaning" of it, our feelings about it, and similar.

    It's no wonder that feeling and rationality follow each other, yet take different paths ever so often.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Anyway, do you think there is a way of determining if someone is able to distinguish objective from subjective in a particular situation?
    Being acquainted with the decision factors of the situation, characteristic subjective views for that type of situation (and the people present) and being themselves inclined to making objective judgements.

    I did not answer as well as I would expect of myself. I'm tired, and I'll have to get some sleep now after all, feeling of tiredness is a real thing..

  8. #218
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Oh, while I'm refraining from posting in this thread, I thought one thing should be mentioned... it is decidedly against MBTI, Jung and whatever personal version is being referenced to use traits, functions and their derivatives as a measurement of ability or aptitude.

  9. #219
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh, while I'm refraining from posting in this thread, I thought one thing should be mentioned... it is decidedly against MBTI, Jung and whatever personal version is being referenced to use traits, functions and their derivatives as a measurement of ability or aptitude.
    Oooooh.... nice shot with the sniper post!
    I bet you could drop a fly at 200 yards.
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  10. #220
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh, while I'm refraining from posting in this thread, I thought one thing should be mentioned... it is decidedly against MBTI, Jung and whatever personal version is being referenced to use traits, functions and their derivatives as a measurement of ability or aptitude.
    Unfortunately, nobody could ever obey that rule, because relativist quagmires like this one would also happen in regards to what "aptitude" is.

    I think admitting that there is any difference at all is admitting that are different levels of competence concerning different fields.


    Do I get paid for saying "different"?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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