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  1. #201
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Wondering why, I search a bit and found this on the second page..
    It's contrary to the impression I got from your original post, where you asked about objectivity without the qualifier "in practice".

    The understanding of the concept of "practice" in this forum (as everywhere) is already biased by the subjective views of S; they tend to hold a veto power on what is considered real. With their tendency to deny more complicated things, we can never promote the real, actual N perceptions to the status they rightfully deserve.

    The only practical thing with S world-view is that they practically deny the validity and merits of N; as this happens all over, it is a part of our practical reality

    You may then find what is "objective" in the "practical" issues in the commonly accepted sense, but it isn't very practical to do so.

    Who has determined that S practice objectivity in their selection of what is considered "real" or "practical"? They repeatedly demand simpler and more mechanical explanations than appropriate for the things being explained. It can't possibly be that one would get a realistic, objective view of the world with the intellectual habits like that.
    That seemed a little biased against S's.
    I will say, that some of what you said is why I had concluded the N to be more objective, but seeing as how anything and everything abstract just complicates this discussion, it makes one wonder exactly how objective someone can be about abstract matters.

    Anyway, I still believe the INTP or ENTP to most objective as I first implied it a year ago, but this thread has become something else completely, and my original definition of objectivity was too multi-faceted to work-out here.
    I gave out my current definition on this thread to see if we could come to a result and work from there.

    ...

    Apparently not.


    As much of disaster as it could be, I might make a thread about parts of the MBTI's mechanics that I doubt.
    I don't know when, though. It will be tedious, and I'm sure BlueWing will swoop in on it like a hawk.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #202
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That seemed a little biased against S's.
    I will say, that some of what you said is why I had concluded the N to be more objective, but seeing as how anything and everything abstract just complicates this discussion, it makes one wonder exactly how objective someone can be about abstract matters.
    Excellent point! Casting the question as "objective in practice" slants it toward the S, but what other kind of objectivity is there? "Objectivity" at first blush seems like a T trait, but the more I read this thread the more I agree that it may be more of an S trait. (And on a more experiential tip, from what I've observed, Ts are more likely to consider themselves completely objective and without bias, but that don't make it so.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    As much of disaster as it could be, I might make a thread about parts of the MBTI's mechanics that I doubt.
    I don't know when, though. It will be tedious, and I'm sure BlueWing will swoop in on it like a hawk.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #203
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Casting the question as "objective in practice" slants it toward the S, but what other kind of objectivity is there? "Objectivity" at first blush seems like a T trait, but the more I read this thread the more I agree that it may be more of an S trait. (And on a more experiential tip, from what I've observed, Ts are more likely to consider themselves completely objective and without bias, but that don't make it so.)
    Depends on our definition of practice. Practice as what is mutually agreed upon more often (S) or practice that covers more ground (N)?

  4. #204
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Depends on our definition...

    I am so tired of reading that.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #205
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Excellent point! Casting the question as "objective in practice" slants it toward the S, but what other kind of objectivity is there? "Objectivity" at first blush seems like a T trait, but the more I read this thread the more I agree that it may be more of an S trait. (And on a more experiential tip, from what I've observed, Ts are more likely to consider themselves completely objective and without bias, but that don't make it so.)




    Sensors tend to be objective in regards to facts and concrete observations, as pointed out by Santu. Yet, less objective with abstractions because they tend to get frozen in their old perceptions. For this reason we see much more sensors struggle tackling new ideas with an open-mind and embrace traditions in effect, whilst Intuitors have an easier time letting go off old notions. It is almost a truism, however, that Ns have an easier time understanding the point of view of others.

    The N is easier for a conscious intellect to control, yet S is not. Therefore it is easier to purge N biases than S.

    I have difficulty imagining S being more objective than N in any other respect than in collection of concrete facts and observation of physical phenomenon. As sensors simply perceive better, whilst the senses of intuitors are clouded within their abstract perceptions. But an objective understanding of the world does not stop at objective understanding of the physical world and facts. Far from it.

    Objectivity is a T thing, because to be objective means to be unaffected by your biases. T removes you from the picture. Other functions do not. The only personal bias Ts have is for removing themselves from the picture.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #206
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    (And on a more experiential tip, from what I've observed, Ts are more likely to consider themselves completely objective and without bias, but that don't make it so.)

    Objectivity is a T thing, because to be objective means to be unaffected by your biases. T removes you from the picture. Other functions do not. The only personal bias Ts have is for removing themselves from the picture.
    Case in point.
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    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #207
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Case in point.
    Yes, you can say I have a strong personal prejudice in favor of logic. So I ignore whatever is not logically supported. Though this protects me from many others prejudices that you're not immune to.

    You only said that Ts are not as objective as they think they are, yet you did not give any argument to support that.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  8. #208
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I am so tired of reading that.
    Hahah! I'm personally content to go with the definition that you've put forward. A couple of the posters in this thread seem to be suggesting that the only definition that should count is the one that makes NTP's the most objective lol. What a subjective way to choose a definition.
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  9. #209
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    /* This script written by Nocapszy on 11/18/2007
    This script proves conclusively beyond all shadow of doubt, logically, that INTPs are not more objective simply because they have thinking as their strongest preference
    This script is not for use in a real build. It's just illustrating a concept...
    */


    #define Thinking (logic)
    #define Objective (unbiased)
    #define ePerceptions (object oriented)

    main()
    {

    if Thinking == Objective
    {
    T is the objective trait;
    INTP is the objective temperament;
    }
    else
    {
    T is not the objective trait;
    INTP is not the only objective temperament;
    }



    if ePerceptions != bias+personal
    extraverted perceptions are not biases
    else
    extraverted perceptions are biases

    }

  10. #210
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I'm actually beginning to think, though, that in order to be as objective as possible, one would have to consider all aspects of our perception of reality as fully as possible to get the most information out of our perceptions. I'm not sure which type would find this easiest, though.
    I've even entertained the thought that Fe can be used objectively. Someone may be particularly fair in interpersonal relations. He/she would not favour one person over the other on subjective basis and then claim the opposite.

    Making unbiased evaluations of people has great importance in many functions in the society. An unbiased person might better assign people to different workgroups, decide on someone's club membership, decide on a patient's ability to continue in some medical treatment, etc..

    Still, most of anyone's feelings are inherently subjective. Good, bad, liking someone, hating, etc.. some of those evaluations are learned and used as a tool, but T is much more a tool -like function. F is more like something that may get the job done, but mostly something that the person likes, what is agreeable, etc..

    Keeping in line with what I said about N, the most objective person would realize the fact that many people exercise lot of F for their personal pleasure and their decision making. This is something that continues to exist, so that concepts, feelings and situations stemming from F will have to be considered as well in objective decision-making.

    The last point was humorously portrayed in a season 1 Star Trek:TOS episode I recently watched, The Galileo Seven. Spock and his landing party were stranded on a planet, Scotty trying to fix their shuttle and the whole party being harassed by large humanoids native to the planet. On the top of it, everybody was getting angry about the lack of personel management skills on Spocks part.

    Spock had decided that the most effective way to deter the humanoids would be to display their strength by phaser fire; make them respect them. A rational creature would accurately evaluate the landing party as something dangerous, and thus avoid it for reasons of self-preservation.

    Of course the plan back-fired catastrophically. The creatures gathered in a big group and attacked the shuttle with spears and rocks. While the humanoids were pounding the shuttle with 300-pound boulders, McCoy snapped at mr. Spock for the failed plan.

    McCoy: "Well Mr.Spock, they didn't stay frightened very long, did they?"
    Spock:"Most illogical reaction. We demonstrated our superior weapons, they should have fled!"
    McCoy:"You mean they should have respected us?"
    Spock:"Of course!"
    McCoy:"Mr.Spock, respect is a rational process! Did it ever occur to you that they might react emotionally, with anger?"
    Spock:"Doctor, I'm not responsible for their unpredictability."

    So yes, I consider F something where you should be objective as well to be most objective as a person. Given only one of the two, I'd go with T to be most objective, though.

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