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  1. #151
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I dont think it is at all clear what you're saying. You keep vascillating from standpoint to standpoint. And even those ideas that you've embraced at one point were far from clearly established.
    A post like this is exactly why I say the INTP isn't any more objective than the ENTP. At first, you were satisfied with your definition of objectivity and were comfortable making such a bombastic claim as "INTPs are most...(I don't remember it verbatim, but the post is there) as the second post in this thread.

    As time went on, and you began to take in more information, you began to question your own claim. Shouldn't this speak to the notion that you only THIKN you're most objective?

    I think you're speaking more in terms of an objective way of dealing with information, but then, the ENTP and INTP have a common technique for dealing with the information, which is Ti.

    By your logic, (saying that the only thing that counts is the judgement function) I could say that INTP and ISTP are exactly the same in objectivity.

  2. #152
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Objective -- To look at/see something as it actually is, without bias or interpretation. Note that this is technically impossible, because reality for people is filtered first through their limited senses, their mental system for representing that information, and often even through their memories and experience before it becomes conscious. The question is what is closest to this, because nothing actually is such.

    Rational -- To base one's decisions on what would be considered by most people to be acceptable criteria for a long-term decision, especially one that affects/involves more than one person. A society or business might be good example.
    So, objectivity-accepting the world for what it is.

    Thus NFs are most objective about the human element

    NTs are most objective about whatever requires impersonal analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Rational -- To base one's decisions on what would be considered by most people to be acceptable criteria for a long-term decision, especially one that affects/involves more than one person. A society or business might be good example.
    Can it not have merit without others acknowleding that it does?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #153
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Well. Perceptions are unconscious. Only become conscious when you apply Ti.

    Thus, if your Ti does not work properly, you wont make good sense of them. INTPs' Ti is more likely to work properly. Therefore the few unconscious perceptions they had will be more easily made sense of.
    Is this a joke? It has to be. Otherwise your Ti isn't working properly.

    Clarification: Who's to say that the unconscious isn't involved in being objective? After all, it all boils down to neural activity. Just because the information doesn't come from the part of the brain that generates consciousness doesn't mean that it's any more biased.

  4. #154
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    A post like this is exactly why I say the INTP isn't any more objective than the ENTP. At first, you were satisfied with your definition of objectivity and were comfortable making such a bombastic claim as "INTPs are most...(I don't remember it verbatim, but the post is there) as the second post in this thread.

    Yes, I still maintain that objectivity is the same thing as Thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    As time went on, and you began to take in more information, you began to question your own claim. Shouldn't this speak to the notion that you only THIKN you're most objective?.

    I dont understand the remark.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    By your logic, (saying that the only thing that counts is the judgement function) I could say that INTP and ISTP are exactly the same in objectivity.
    Yes ITPs are about as objective. INTP edges slightly ahead because Ne flourishes Ti. Whilst with Ti and Se they operate, as seperate entities.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #155
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    These are the kinds of things that N run in their mind without touching a calculator or running a spreadsheet.
    Right. I'll be an S. Why do you believe this? Why do you believe N = statistics? Or N = Math? Or any variation on that theme? Is this an impression, or did you look at the type breakdown for mathematics? Did you adjust for university type distributions? IQ?

    I don't see many Ns doing a statistical analysis before they say something like "that's what Ns do" or similar.

    Demanding an example is also very much an S thing - even when inappropriate. Not all concepts are well illustrated by individual examples. How should I prove the average of a set of numbers with a singular example?
    You can easily show how to derive an average with an example to show that the formula (the "theory") is applicable. I asked for an example in which intuition was being applied. If the theory is accurate, you can easily find an example to demonstrate it. It's not like I'm asking for E8 TOE here, or something that is completely impossible to show.

    The same reasoning applies to more complex judgements than calculating an average. Who's popular? What's beautiful? Is movie X a crime drama or psychological thriller? Does someone look old?
    Every example is why "objective" needs to be tangible. Every single one of them is not objective, it is subjective to the beholder. Yet you can turn most of them into an objective statement. You seem to say that Ns do that (statistics, etc) and yet also make the most leaps...

    Popular as objective = measure something. Fans, surveys, concerts, sales... "Jane Doe is the most popular artist because she sold the most albums".

    Saying "I think she is popular" based upon a lot of small pieces of data is subjective. That doesn't make it false, less accurate or anything else. It is simple more subjective.

    Making a judgement on these kind of issues requires us to compare a lot of information. It's time-consuming to scrutinize 100 movies to make a detailed comparison on the features of drama and thriller movies. Even then, the result can be disputed. "What is drama? What is considered exciting? Who has decided on these definitions? I refuse to believe that thrillers exist."
    Exactly. We use heuristics in order to process massive amounts of information to come to a subjective quick conclusion. We cannot gather objective data in real time to make real decisions. We shortcut. The rule of thumb, the short cuts, the fuzzy thinking... that is the subjective interpretation. We fill in the blanks.

    Your view on if it is a drama is subjective based upon rules you have set to parse through information. You don't attempt to define drama, then create a checklist to check if it is. You shortcut it based on past experiences.

    Just as beauty is relative to what you have seen. Simple example - in our media world, we are blasted with more pictures of tail end beautiful women. Your heuristic scan will therefore not place the respective beaty, based on average population, in the correct place - because you are not being objective. Your trained perspective is subjective and manipulated by your own view. It does not represent the real population distribution (even of people you have encountered).

    S will have to contend to the fact that many well-established concepts exist only for groups of items, which requires some pattern recognition, or intuition. We wouldn't be able to use many common sense, every day concepts without using some N. Have you given a thought about why machine learning is so difficult?
    This isn't an argument over what is better or more accurate. It is a comment over what is objective. We cannot be objective because we are human. We use rules of thumb, biases, short cuts... because we cannot contend with the amount of data we receive.

  6. #156
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Is this a joke? It has to be. Otherwise your Ti isn't working properly.

    Clarification: Who's to say that the unconscious isn't involved in being objective? After all, it all boils down to neural activity. Just because the information doesn't come from the part of the brain that generates consciousness doesn't mean that it's any more biased.
    You still dont get it. Intuition and sensing are unconscious. They are just vague perceptions. When I say fhdoifdsohifdsohisfdohisfd. Your intuition merely collects a perception. Yet, it is not until you apply your Judgment you manage to understand what I just said.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #157
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes ITPs are about as objective. INTP edges slightly ahead because Ne flourishes Ti.
    Ok. You don't have to believe me, but I actually began typing something predicting this would be your response. For the sake of leading you into your own logical trap, I ended my response where it was.

    You realize that you're literally saying that the perception makes a difference, do you not?

    Whilst with Ti and Se they operate, as seperate entities.
    No they don't. Think of a guitar player ISTP. They use Ti to define the seemingly insignificant bits of sensory data so that the finger work is just right. While in this example they're not defining truth about philosophical or conceptual data, they're still using "objectivity" (your non incisive synonym) to define the most efficient, and cleanest method with the least mistakes.

  8. #158
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You still dont get it. Intuition and sensing are unconscious. They are just vague perceptions. When I say fhdoifdsohifdsohisfdohisfd. Your intuition merely collects a perception. Yet, it is not until you apply your Judgment you manage to understand what I just said.
    No, I do get it. I'm telling you you're wrong. The unconsciousness of perception is irrelevant. It's not as if thinking deletes some bias that perception gathers.

  9. #159
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Ok. You don't have to believe me, but I actually began typing something predicting this would be your response. For the sake of leading you into your own logical trap, I ended my response where it was.

    You realize that you're literally saying that the perception makes a difference, do you not? .
    What have you done to refute that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    No they don't. Think of a guitar player ISTP. They use Ti to define the seemingly insignificant bits of sensory data so that the finger work is just right. While in this example they're not defining truth about philosophical or conceptual data, they're still using "objectivity" (your non incisive synonym) to define the most efficient, and cleanest method with the least mistakes.
    Dont think of this as a dichotomy. That is one is totally interchangeable, the other not at all. But only as that Ti and Ne are more easily interchangeable than Ti and Se.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #160
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    No, I do get it. I'm telling you you're wrong. The unconsciousness of perception is irrelevant. It's not as if thinking deletes some bias that perception gathers.
    You still dont understand. If I asked you what your intuitions are like, you'd have no way of knowing. Whatever you'd pass off as your answer would be the product of your Ti.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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