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  1. #141
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Am I the only one noticing the way opinions are breaking down party lines?
    INTP says INTPs are most objective.
    ENTP says ENTPS are most objective.
    ENTJ says ENTJs are most objective.

    At least none of the INTJs have vouched for themselves yet.
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  2. #142
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    People can be really confused over something rather easily. Let me try one more time to cut the Gordian knot here.

    INTP's have the strongest Ti, and hence the strongest connection to pure "logic," as I defined it earlier, because logic is based on seeing and applying very specific patterns in a particular way rather than anything tangible.

    ENTP's have the strongest Ne, and are best at perceiving patterns for their own sake, without predetermined bias towards previously accepted rules. This makes them more objective and rational than INTP's, but not more logical.

    ST's are the most objective types, because they come to conclusions about actual observations without making inferences. Among them, ISTP's would be the most logical (dominant Ti, and second only to INTP's), ESTP's the most objective (dominant Se). ExTJ's would be the most rational (dominant Te).

    INTJ's are second to ENTP's in objectivity and rationality (dominant Ni), but it's close. Their strengths by comparison are their insight and decisiveness.
    What do you understand for 'objective and rational' to be?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #143
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    The most objective type is ENTJ. Extraverted Thinking is directed towards the external world and Intuition enables abstraction and distance from it.
    What do you understand for objectivity to be?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  4. #144
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Why should perception be part of the objectivity definition? Unless you're talking about making objective external decisions. Not just thinking clearly. Then I'd agree. But we still have not settled on what we understand for objectivity to be.
    That's a foolish question. I could turn that right around and ask why it shouldn't. I won't because it's as they say on the streets, 'retarded'.

    Why does it have to be a part of the definition? Because in order to TRULY be objective, you have to know all the facts.

  5. #145
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Am I the only one noticing the way opinions are breaking down party lines?
    INTP says INTPs are most objective.
    ENTP says ENTPS are most objective.
    ENTJ says ENTJs are most objective.

    At least none of the INTJs have vouched for themselves yet.
    In the first place, I'm not by any means saying ENTP is more objective. I'm saying it has just as much potential to an INTP to be objective.

    That's because the party is only represented by our modest Night. Ironic though, I think, that one of the few ones who is trying to be objective by not commenting on his type's behalf is one who's not even in question.

  6. #146
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    That's a foolish question. I could turn that right around and ask why it shouldn't. I won't because it's as they say on the streets, 'retarded'.

    Why does it have to be a part of the definition? Because in order to TRULY be objective, you have to know all the facts.
    Whats objectivity? I dont even know what you're talking about.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #147
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    In the first place, I'm not by any means saying ENTP is more objective. I'm saying it has just as much potential to an INTP to be objective.

    That's because the party is only represented by our modest Night. Ironic though, I think, that one of the few ones who is trying to be objective by not commenting on his type's behalf is one who's not even in question.
    I dont think it is at all clear what you're saying. You keep vascillating from standpoint to standpoint. And even those ideas that you've embraced at one point were far from clearly established.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #148
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    People can be really confused over something rather easily. Let me try one more time to cut the Gordian knot here.

    INTP's have the strongest Ti, and hence the strongest connection to pure "logic," as I defined it earlier, because logic is based on seeing and applying very specific patterns in a particular way rather than anything tangible.

    ENTP's have the strongest Ne, and are best at perceiving patterns for their own sake, without predetermined bias towards previously accepted rules. This makes them more objective and rational than INTP's, but not more logical.
    Thank you. Good to see that someone else sees that taking in information doesn't taint objectivity and somehow make it personal. I don't think that makes us more objective necessarily. The fact that we take in more information only matters as long as we use our Ti to break it down and systemize it.


    ST's are the most objective types, because they come to conclusions about actual observations without making inferences. Among them, ISTP's would be the most logical (dominant Ti, and second only to INTP's), ESTP's the most objective (dominant Se). ExTJ's would be the most rational (dominant Te).
    Disagree. Making inferences doesn't by any means count as a point towards bias. It only serves to give an idea as to what should be searched for. It helps for future perceiving.

  9. #149
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    What do you understand for 'objective and rational' to be?

    Objective -- To look at/see something as it actually is, without bias or interpretation. Note that this is technically impossible, because reality for people is filtered first through their limited senses, their mental system for representing that information, and often even through their memories and experience before it becomes conscious. The question is what is closest to this, because nothing actually is such.

    Rational -- To base one's decisions on what would be considered by most people to be acceptable criteria for a long-term decision, especially one that affects/involves more than one person. A society or business might be good example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Disagree. Making inferences doesn't by any means count as a point towards bias. It only serves to give an idea as to what should be searched for. It helps for future perceiving.
    But the inferences are based on one's ideas and knowledge, rather than having been actually observed. There's a slight tendency to fit things into a pattern, even if they don't necessarily have to fit. S's have the disadvantage of not always seeing connections that are obvious, because they tend to have to see the entire pattern before they can process it as such, rather than as isolated individual perceptions.

  10. #150
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Thank you. Good to see that someone else sees that taking in information doesn't taint objectivity and somehow make it personal. I don't think that makes us more objective necessarily. The fact that we take in more information only matters as long as we use our Ti to break it down and systemize it..
    Well. Perceptions are unconscious. Only become conscious when you apply Ti.

    Thus, if your Ti does not work properly, you wont make good sense of them. INTPs' Ti is more likely to work properly. Therefore the few unconscious perceptions they had will be more easily made sense of.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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