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  1. #131
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Nocapszy, fancy taking the ENTP banner off me? I think I'm gonna go watch a few episodes of Star Trek by way of a well-earned break from this nonsense. Maybe I'll have an ethereal cup of coffee that I'll delude myself into enjoying (since enjoyment doesn't really exist, being an intangible abstract noun and all).

    pt, for the record, you're repeatedly failing to notice that I'm not equating perception with objectivity, but only trying to establish what part it plays in it. Never mind, like you say, we're not gonna agree
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  2. #132
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Nocapszy, fancy taking the ENTP banner off me? I think I'm gonna go watch a few episodes of Star Trek by way of a well-earned break from this nonsense. Maybe I'll have an ethereal cup of coffee that I'll delude myself into enjoying (since enjoyment doesn't really exist, being an intangible abstract noun and all).
    We'll tag team it.

  3. #133
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    We'll tag team it.
    Over to you then. No quitting before you find another ENTP to carry on the work heheh... you've got it cut out for you - you've got to prove the validity of intuitional perception as well as how the use of it doesn't necessarily exclude or compromise objectivity. And then there's BlueWing...

    Good luck mate!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  4. #134
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Actually, no. Even if we equate objectivity with thinking, the ENTP still uses thinking to decipher and analyze. I think you've got sort of a non-objective attachment to being the most objective..
    I dont get it? Isnt the one who is more comfortable with Thinking deciphers and analyzes better? As we have established, the more you use Thinking, the better you tend to be with it? Since its more of a preferrence for the INTP, they tend to use it more, and therefore analyze and decipher better?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #135
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Do you have an example? I don't mind changing my mind, but I can't think of a single example in which theory/abstract and so forth is not a creation of uncertainty to explain something - removed from reality and manipulated in the mind.
    You seem to have made a compound statement which I can't answer as a whole, so I'll just answer the part where you equate theory with something that is removed from reality.

    Well, I'm hoping I won't derail the conversation too much with my idea. I've just noticed that N type thinking promotes the use of statistics, comparisons, interrelations and the similar - and these can be completely objective.

    The average of the numbers presented. The median, the minimum, the maximum. Standard deviation. Common items in set A and set B. Correlation between this and that.

    These are the kinds of things that N run in their mind without touching a calculator or running a spreadsheet. The averages, medians, differences, correlations, etc made up in the mind are good, immediate extra information, even tho they are just approximations or hunches. Someone who's never heard of mathematics might consider these to be "theories".

    S who don't "refine" the information they gather are missing a lot. N who don't bother to inspect the individual items of information are also missing a lot. Demanding an example is also very much an S thing - even when inappropriate. Not all concepts are well illustrated by individual examples. How should I prove the average of a set of numbers with a singular example?

    The same reasoning applies to more complex judgements than calculating an average. Who's popular? What's beautiful? Is movie X a crime drama or psychological thriller? Does someone look old?

    Making a judgement on these kind of issues requires us to compare a lot of information. It's time-consuming to scrutinize 100 movies to make a detailed comparison on the features of drama and thriller movies. Even then, the result can be disputed. "What is drama? What is considered exciting? Who has decided on these definitions? I refuse to believe that thrillers exist."

    S will have to contend to the fact that many well-established concepts exist only for groups of items, which requires some pattern recognition, or intuition. We wouldn't be able to use many common sense, every day concepts without using some N. Have you given a thought about why machine learning is so difficult?

    We are not able to explain all of the real, inexact concepts with entirely exact language.

  6. #136
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Over to you then. No quitting before you find another ENTP to carry on the work heheh... you've got it cut out for you - you've got to prove the validity of intuitional perception as well as how the use of it doesn't necessarily exclude or compromise objectivity.
    Simple. The Ne of the ENTP calls upon Ti for direction. Of course, it's typical of a thinking dominant to exclude information such as this.

    As I see it, the ENTP is more actively searching for the truth in the name of objectivity where the INTP is more inclined for deciphering what little chunks of information that intuition brings in the name of objective reality.

    The ENTP is by no means by definition less likely to be working its way towards logical discovery of truth, which is after all, the hallmark of being objective, is it not?

    And then there's BlueWing...


    Good luck mate!
    Is that a jest or a jab? Somehow I can't tell...

  7. #137
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I dont get it? Isnt the one who is more comfortable with Thinking deciphers and analyzes better?
    How does commonality make it any stronger or better? If an ENTP breaks something down into the simplest parts and forms them into a logical framework, the INTP can do no better.

    There IS such a thing as objective truth - a point at which no more information can be gathered, or deduced into a smaller system. I don't see how having a stronger preference for thinking makes the INTP any more capable of it. He might get there first, but that's equally as unlikely because the ENTP seeks information at a higher rate.

    Objectivity is, in all fairness, the culmination of perception and logic.

  8. #138
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    The most objective type is ENTJ. Extraverted Thinking is directed towards the external world and Intuition enables abstraction and distance from it.

  9. #139
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    People can be really confused over something rather easily. Let me try one more time to cut the Gordian knot here.

    INTP's have the strongest Ti, and hence the strongest connection to pure "logic," as I defined it earlier, because logic is based on seeing and applying very specific patterns in a particular way rather than anything tangible.

    ENTP's have the strongest Ne, and are best at perceiving patterns for their own sake, without predetermined bias towards previously accepted rules. This makes them more objective and rational than INTP's, but not more logical.

    ST's are the most objective types, because they come to conclusions about actual observations without making inferences. Among them, ISTP's would be the most logical (dominant Ti, and second only to INTP's), ESTP's the most objective (dominant Se). ExTJ's would be the most rational (dominant Te).

    INTJ's are second to ENTP's in objectivity and rationality (dominant Ni), but it's close. Their strengths by comparison are their insight and decisiveness.

  10. #140
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    How does commonality make it any stronger or better? If an ENTP breaks something down into the simplest parts and forms them into a logical framework, the INTP can do no better.

    There IS such a thing as objective truth - a point at which no more information can be gathered, or deduced into a smaller system. I don't see how having a stronger preference for thinking makes the INTP any more capable of it. He might get there first, but that's equally as unlikely because the ENTP seeks information at a higher rate.

    Objectivity is, in all fairness, the culmination of perception and logic.
    Why should perception be part of the objectivity definition? Unless you're talking about making objective external decisions. Not just thinking clearly. Then I'd agree. But we still have not settled on what we understand for objectivity to be.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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