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  1. #91
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes, I would
    Eh, then we'll just disagree.

  2. #92
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I think it depends on the internal digestive process, once the information has been incorporated. I've noticed that STs seem quite good at expressing their logical plans, once they've decided how to move.

    A lack of impulsivity with processed data alongside a reliance on personal experience as the critical negotiator seems approximate to what I've observed - I think this combination makes the ST resourceful, yet committed to their original schematics.

    Reliability of data input appears chief among ST concerns.
    Hm, I'd say there was a difference there between STP and STJ. Yes, reliability of data and lack of impulsivity with STJ, but with STP, more like completeness of data, and plenty of impulsivity!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #93
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm, I'd say there was a difference there between STP and STJ. Yes, reliability of data and lack of impulsivity with STJ, but with STP, more like completeness of data, and plenty of impulsivity!
    Interesting - it sounds like our experiences differ.

    Do you find spontaneity a hallmark feature of the STPs you've known?

  4. #94
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If we are talking about prejudice and just what MBTI measures, I don't see how N could be considered as objective - or would you argue that abstract, imaginative, conceptual, theoretical and original thinking would be as objective as their counterparts?

    To give an example, the first pages involved arguing from theory that INTPs > ENTPs because functional dominance plays a role. Do you believe that is objective thinking?
    No. That's a good point, actually. It would have been more objective to create a definition of objectivity, and then measure several individuals who tested as ENTP or INTP, and then see how well they met each of these criteria.

    They were really more focused on which one should, based on their theoretical nature, be more objective, and then using that to determine whether the tests themselves were creating results for people matching up with what should have been in their theoretical natures. They were refining their agreement/dispute on what the idea was supposed to be in the first place, rather than thinking about what was true in the current implementation.

  5. #95
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    No. That's a good point, actually. It would have been more objective to create a definition of objectivity, and then measure several individuals who tested as ENTP or INTP, and then see how well they met each of these criteria.
    Um, hang on, that's exactly what I was trying to do!! I proposed a definition of objectivity and wanted to discuss it and get other perspectives on it to improve it, then see who/how people fitted it, but only Night responded to it, and nobody else was proposing any other ones or saying what was wrong (if anything) with mine, so I just carried on doing the best I could with what I had

    The rest of what you said... I don't relate to that at all, either I wasn't doing what I thought I was, or you've mistook me somehow...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #96
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Um, hang on, that's exactly what I was trying to do!! I proposed a definition of objectivity and wanted to discuss it and get other perspectives on it to improve it, then see who/how people fitted it, but only Night responded to it, and nobody else was proposing any other ones or saying what was wrong (if anything) with mine, so I just carried on doing the best I could with what I had

    The rest of what you said... I don't relate to that at all, either I wasn't doing what I thought I was, or you've mistook me somehow...
    Well, I know you did. I was just telling him that I agreed that what the thread was doing originally (not in your post) wasn't as purely objective/unbiased as it was a dispute about what should be true in theory, what the theory actually means by certain things, and whether the tests map types to the proper location in the theoretical framework, etc. Basically, I was just letting him know that everyone knew the difference between objective methods and subjective ones.

  7. #97
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Objectivity of one NT versus another NT would depend entirely upon how close the subject was to the focus points of the individuals own feelings.

    Admittedly it has always seemed to me that the introverts held an advantage over the extroverts but I'm now of the thinking that this has more to do with the display of emotion and bias more so than any inherent lack or deficiency of objectivity.

    As for J vs P, I think that's more to do with abstract objectivity or practical objectivity. What is absolutely true is not always what is best in reference to real world contexts and the NTJs I know tend to be aiming for practical solutions where as the NTPs tend to be looking for abstract truth (if the delineation makes any sense to you).

    I'd say that in terms of capability of getting close to pure objectivity I'd reckon that INTPs are probably top of the list. Wouldn't have thought it'd be by much though.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #98
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Um, hang on, that's exactly what I was trying to do!! I proposed a definition of objectivity and wanted to discuss it and get other perspectives on it to improve it, then see who/how people fitted it, but only Night responded to it, and nobody else was proposing any other ones or saying what was wrong (if anything) with mine, so I just carried on doing the best I could with what I had

    The rest of what you said... I don't relate to that at all, either I wasn't doing what I thought I was, or you've mistook me somehow...
    Agreed.

    What we are parsing is a fundamental picture of how people appreciate their world. As I lack practical context for how an S differentiates, so to does an S lack experience for my divisions.

    As an example, I can't speak for BlueWing, but it seems possible his reluctance to deviate from theory to speculate on what "works" might suggest a respect for the complexity of the academic model. His awareness of his personal strengths probably influence his reading of the text. What "works" is intimate to the user.

  9. #99
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, I know you did. I was just telling him that I agreed that what the thread was doing originally (not in your post) wasn't as objective/unbiased as it was a dispute about what should be true in theory, what the theory actually means by certain things, and such.
    *shakes head*

    The funny part is that we are trying to come up with a definition for objective. I'd either use the dictionary... or maybe the etymology of the word.

    But that's just me.

  10. #100
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    So come on then... do any of the non-NT's (apart from Night) want to make some improvements on my definition of objectivity, so we can agree on one before holding each type and/or function up to it, comparing the theory with experience/practice and then proceed to the final judgement?

    Or are we just gonna sit around and whinge all day? Cos I've got eggs to boil and sandwiches to make, y'know

    EDIT - ah, pt I see we synchronized there. Okay then... but I will point out that, as a linguist, I have the privilege to confidently say that dictionaries are not objective.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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