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[MBTI General] Why people don't like this approach ?

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
So it's just the results you're interested in, ok.



Not saying anything, just proding for motive. Some INTJs will use information like this to help those they care about and often gets misinterperated as condemnation. Or is it the females that do this more often?

1. Yes the final outcome is something very important in my philosophy.

2. I don't know about the females to be honest. But yes I come as judgemental quite often if I don't control what I say. What was one of the main reasons why I became so unsponatneous. I simply censor myself more than it is normal.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
I will give a picturesquely example of my behaviour.
A baby is born and people are happy. Except me, since I keep my head cool. So Instead of being happy I calculate.


Like this.

Born 3.12.2005

Gender female

Current average life-span of females - 76 years.
(if it stays the same)

Estimated time of death 3.12.2081.

Size of possible error 10%


Meaning- she will die somewhere between 2076 and 2086.

I can see where you are coming from, but this assumes you are using a current mortality table. It is pretty unlikely that this table will be accurate 70+ years from now. Changing mortality tables are the reason why pensions are no longer popular, and in the US our Social Security benefits are gradually being reduced. This projection you are making is only as good as the model it is based upon, and all models which make future projects have to be refined and modified over time.

In essence what I am saying is that the future actually is unpredictable. I agree with you to some extent that life is not totally random and most people will have predictable characteristics, but you go to far in the other direction by putting too much confidence in an arbitrary model.


EDIT: Just looked through the rest of this thread. Sorry I misinterpreted the original post. :doh:


Here is my $.02. I have noticed that N-dominant thinkers are often less emotional than the T-dominant ones. (Depending on the situation.) This is because sometimes emotions have to do with how "connected" you are to the moment at hand. This "disconnection" can be weird or unnerving to a lot of people. On the other hand I really like to associate with other N-dominants. It's nice to know that you are not the only weirdo in the world. :) So while typical people may not relate to you, some of the atypical people will really enjoy your company.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
I can see where you are coming from, but this assumes you are using a current mortality table. It is pretty unlikely that this table will be accurate 70+ years from now. Changing mortality tables are the reason why pensions are no longer popular, and in the US our Social Security benefits are gradually being reduced. This projection you are making is only as good as the model it is based upon, and all models which make future projects have to be refined and modified over time.

In essence what I am saying is that the future actually is unpredictable. I agree with you to some extent that life is not totally random and most people will have predictable characteristics, but you go to far in the other direction by putting too much confidence in an arbitrary model.


This is why I said that if I would do this for real I would add more variables.
And the first one would be exactly this one. However if I do that my argument becomes debating of the future and this is not about this thread is about.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
Here is my $.02. I have noticed that N-dominant thinkers are often less emotional than the T-dominant ones. (Depending on the situation.) This is because sometimes emotions have to do with how "connected" you are to the moment at hand. This "disconnection" can be weird or unnerving to a lot of people. On the other hand I really like to associate with other N-dominants. It's nice to know that you are not the only weirdo in the world. :) So while typical people may not relate to you, some of the atypical people will really enjoy your company.


I agree with this. However I have a problem with N dominant people as well.
What is due to a fact that I have a very strong Te in the background.
So I can come as closed-minded or arrogant to them. Basicly you can call this "the problem of my life".
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
I agree with this. However I have a problem with N dominant people as well.
What is due to a fact that I have a very strong Te in the background.
So I can come as closed-minded or arrogant to them. Basicly you can call this "the problem of my life".

This is one of those problems that gets worked out with time and effort. As long as you keep trying to connect with people you'll learn how to understand each other. Even if you mess up a current relationship, there will be future ones where you can try again.

Don't get me wrong. There will always be a lot of people who won't really appreciate an INTJ, but also there will always be people who will. Just have to keep at it. :)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
This is one of those problems that gets worked out with time and effort. As long as you keep trying to connect with people you'll learn how to understand each other. Even if you mess up a current relationship, there will be future ones where you can try again.

Don't get me wrong. There will always be a lot of people who won't really appreciate an INTJ, but also there will always be people who will. Just have to keep at it. :)


Somehow I doubt that will happen. (unless some deal braker shows up)


As far as I remember I have never phylosophically klicked with someone as well I did with her. (other guys included)
It is just that my Te and directness are giving her headaches sometimes.
 

Mitzy

brat
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
687
MBTI Type
ENTP
try having a baby or getting a pup. maybe that will make you squishier :wubbie:
 

Lightyear

New member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
899
As a person I place almost no value on "the" journey. The only thing that matters to me in is the final outcome and everything else is technically irrelevant.
However my tendency to go after a defintive outcome scares other people and it makes them uncomfortable quite a bit.
So this thread will probably look like a joke but I am dead serious about this


I will give a picturesquely example of my behaviour.
A baby is born and people are happy. Except me, since I keep my head cool. So Instead of being happy I calculate.


Like this.

Born 3.12.2005

Gender female

Current average life-span of females - 76 years.
(if it stays the same)

Estimated time of death 3.12.2081.

Size of possible error 10%


Meaning- she will die somewhere between 2076 and 2086.
The chances that she will die a violent or somehow tragic death are less than 1% and should not be takes as a likely outcome. Even if probablility exists. Which is further reducing the a fact that she is from a stabile family.
If something special does not happen her first day at school will be in september of of 2010 or 2011.
Since childern don't usually fair at this stage of lofe it is likely that she will enter a highschool 8 years later form her first day in school.


Statistically the chances are that she will be of average intelligence and skills. Or at least somewhere near the average.
If enought time is invested it can be calculated how much money she can possibly earn in life. Also it is would be advisable to calculate possible minimum and maximum to add flexibility the calculation. The chances of strong deviations from standard are possbible but statistical observations of current population shows that they don't happen to that many individuals.


Education and talents - unkown at this stage
However it is unlikely that they will make the child to be that much special that the child wil be much more succesful than children of her age. Gender suggests that it is more likely that she will take a more people oriented carrer.

Sexual pertners during life -time between 3 and 6
Number of childern 2 plus 1or2 aborted if current social trends continue.
Maximum number of childern that she can give birth - Unknown.



This is where i will stop since I think that everybody got my point. In realty I would be much more concrete since I would have a concrete person to analyse. Also I would place much more variables which I didn't place here since I don't want my example to be too complicated. Plus I would make a few "simulations" as well.


Basicly I define all major traits and variables at the start. So the journey is something that siimply has to happen to prove me right or wrong. (and nothing more). But generally speaking I am often quite correct about things.
Since most things are nothing more than a continuation of events from past mixed with statistical odds.



NPs usually have the bigges problems with this since they can comprehend my logic. But they have a huge need to explore and need to wonder. I basicly kill them when I show them some barrier in their life that is like 10 years ahead. (especially NFPs) Since I place their entire exploring thing in the context of space and time and show them how much time they have left. (or something)

SJs - either think you are rude or feel uncomfortabe since they can see your J logic which they like at work. But they feel so naked around you. I tend to think that NFJ are similar to SJs when it comes to this.


While SPs just say "cool" and walk away or they will try to convince that you need profesional help.


I could say much more but I will leave that for a thread. Instead I will just get to the point.


Why my thought process / approach makes people so uncomfortabe ?
I mean because of this I often don't show people who I am. Since people seem to be uncomfortable with idea that things can be that well summarized.

Basicly this is not about being correct or not this is about approach towards reality.



More info at post 29.

Okay, my first thought was that this approach seems too impersonal/cold, like others have said you sound like a cyborg not like a human. I look after kids for a living and if you would analyze the kids I am looking after like this ("human, female, 19 months old,...") I wouldn't want to be around you because your analysis would be factually correct but you would still completely miss the point.

I think what freaks me out about your approach is that a certain sense of wonder and magic is missing. I remember going to a talk by Stephen Fry and he said that the seemingly unnecessary things in life (like poetry, art, dance, music etc.) are actually the things that make a life worth living. In the same way there is also something special about a child, its spirit, its innocence that makes the child worth far more than the sum of its parts, I suppose all the metaphysical things that you can't measure rationally.

Or to use a metaphor: Let's imagine we are building a house. Your analysis is like the naked structure of the house, the concrete, the bricks, the empty walls. It's necessary that someone builds these foundations, someone who has a very rational approach. But no one wants to live in such an empty, unwelcoming building, they want to make it beautiful and decorate it, paint the walls in lovely colours, hang art in the living room, put pictures of their loved ones above the fireplace.

In the same way a person doesn't just want to be seen as a thing to be analysed, because with that you are completely missing the point, their individual beauty and humanity. The same goes for their dreams and hopes, they don't just want them to be analysed coldly because that takes away all hope and wonder. I know there is a time and place to be rational and logical but with this kind of approach you can also completely miss the point. Dreaming and inspiring and encouraging someone instead of looking at the cold facts of their life can birth something great in another human being; hope, a new inspiration, vision, creative expression etc. I think that is one of the gifts of Fe+Ni, it gives the ability to birth hope and inspire in the middle of nothingness and coldness. (That whole explanation reminds me of Obama, I guess he is a major Fe user and he gave people hope again by using it, so now we have to see how his plans translate into reality but he worked as the fuel that got the engine running again by blowing away cynicism.)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
Okay, my first thought was that this approach seems too impersonal/cold, like others have said you sound like a cyborg not like a human. I look after kids for a living and if you would analyze the kids I am looking after like this ("human, female, 19 months old,...") I wouldn't want to be around you because your analysis would be factually correct but you would still completely miss the point.

I think what freaks me out about your approach is that a certain sense of wonder and magic is missing. I remember going to a talk by Stephen Fry and he said that the seemingly unnecessary things in life (like poetry, art, dance, music etc.) are actually the things that make a life worth living. In the same way there is also something special about a child, its spirit, its innocence that makes the child worth far more than the sum of its parts, I suppose all the metaphysical things that you can't measure rationally.

Or to use a metaphor: Let's imagine we are building a house. Your analysis is like the naked structure of the house, the concrete, the bricks, the empty walls. It's necessary that someone builds these foundations, someone who has a very rational approach. But no one wants to live in such an empty, unwelcoming building, they want to make it beautiful and decorate it, paint the walls in lovely colours, hang art in the living room, put pictures of their loved ones above the fireplace.

In the same way a person doesn't just want to be seen as a thing to be analysed, because with that you are completely missing the point, their individual beauty and humanity. The same goes for their dreams and hopes, they don't just want them to be analysed coldly because that takes away all hope and wonder. I know there is a time and place to be rational and logical but with this kind of approach you can also completely miss the point. Dreaming and inspiring and encouraging someone instead of looking at the cold facts of their life can birth something great in another human being; hope, a new inspiration, vision, creative expression etc. I think that is one of the gifts of Fe+Ni, it gives the ability to birth hope and inspire in the middle of nothingness and coldness. (That whole explanation reminds me of Obama, I guess he is a major Fe user and he gave people hope again by using it, so now we have to see how his plans translate into reality but he worked as the fuel that got the engine running again by blowing away cynicism.)


Finally a replay I was looking for .


People usually think/feel like this about me in real life when I show who I am beneath the skin. I mean I am sorry but this is who I am and I can't be much more different than I am. Of course I have a little bit warmer side but most of the time this is how I operated.


Just tell me one thing, could ever imagine me as good person if you know all of this about me ?
 

Lightyear

New member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
899
Well finally a replay I was looking for .


People usually think/feel like this about me in real life when I show who I am beneath the skin. I mean I am sorry but this is who I am and I can't be much more different than I am. Of course I have a little bit warmer side but most of the time this is how I operated.


Just tell me one thing, could ever imagine me as good person if you know all of this about me ?


I wouldn't judge you as either good or bad, I don't think somebody is good just because they have loads of Fe that makes everyone else feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside and that someone is bad just because they are very rational. Your thinking actually reminds me of my brother (an INTP), he can sometimes be so rational/cold in his judgements that I need a break from him because his views seem too hopeless to me. But I think that your point of view is also valid since to go back to my metaphor of the house we need someone who is though-minded enough to build the foundations of the house. Without them all the decorations would be pointless.

I guess as long as you are humble enough to realize that you don't see the whole truth and don't despise us "fuzzy-minded" people but realise that our point of view is also vital to keep the world running I wouldn't have a problem with you. I might be careful about starting a relationship with someone who is extremely logical but that's just personal preference, because I am touchy-feely and need a lot of emotional input.
 

Kra

Black Magic Buzzard
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
912
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
4w5
Or to use a metaphor: Let's imagine we are building a house. Your analysis is like the naked structure of the house, the concrete, the bricks, the empty walls. It's necessary that someone builds these foundations, someone who has a very rational approach. But no one wants to live in such an empty, unwelcoming building, they want to make it beautiful and decorate it, paint the walls in lovely colours, hang art in the living room, put pictures of their loved ones above the fireplace.

Likewise though, no one wants to live in a pretty house with no structural integrity. (I missed your second post at first, where you basically said this :))

I think that is one of the gifts of Fe+Ni, it gives the ability to birth hope and inspire in the middle of nothingness and coldness. (That whole explanation reminds me of Obama, I guess he is a major Fe user and he gave people hope again by using it, so now we have to see how his plans translate into reality but he worked as the fuel that got the engine running again by blowing away cynicism.)

I think you touch on something important here. The "Muse" or inspiration is indeed important, but it's counterpart is the executor, which is equally important in making said hope a reality.

People usually think/feel like this about me in real life when I show who I am beneath the skin. I mean I am sorry but this is who I am and I can't be much more different than I am. Of course I have a little bit warmer side but most of the time this is how I operated.

And you shouldn't, your mindset is a needed one. There are far too few analytically minded people in this world.

Just tell me one thing, could ever imagine me as good person if you know all of this about me ?

I could. Good/evil is less about how you think, and more of what becomes of it, to my notion at least.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
I think you touch on something important here. The "Muse" or inspiration is indeed important, but it's counterpart is the executor, which is equally important in making said hope a reality.

And you shouldn't, your mindset is a needed one. There are far too few analytically minded people in this world.
I could. Good/evil is less about how you think, and more of what becomes of it, to my notion at least.


Well but where you draw the line ?

What I did I Tiger Woods thread to Giggly is typical dinamic I have with SFs.
(and yes I did that just to prove my point)
With STs it is similar in is just that in this it is not about relationships. Instead it is usually about sports.


In my entire life I never got drunk or hight bacause that does not make any sense. I have stoped watching movies since most of them don't make any sense. (I even opened a thread about this)
When people say that they are of some nationality I attack them that the entire concept is nonsense since our origin is animalistic and this are just remains of territorial and tribal way of thinking. But as a concept nationality has no foundation in reality.
When in comes to religion I have butchered it into pieces and concluded that the worst thing that can happen to a person is to live forever. (if we overlook the fact that there is no real empirical evidance to support religion)

When my old neighbour that took care of me when I was little ended in hospital my only reaction was
"What did you expect ? She is over 80."
I dont believe in market since there are good arguments the entire thing is not sustainable from chemical perspective. (what is a argument)

I have doubts about how much ethics is actually valid.
I don't dance at all since I don't feel the vibe at all.
I am 25 and I never had a close friendship with another person. What is simply because I was uninterested in emotional exchanges. In almost all case I think things through before I open my mouth.


I have plans for my life that go decades into future and evan my own mother knows nothing about them. (just for the record it is nothing illegal)
In my entire life I have never voted for anyone since any political option never made sense to me. (what I can explain if needed. I mean it is a huge argument) I never had pet since I never understood the point of having one.


I could go on since I have more of this, But I think that this is enough to persent my case/point. So maybe Lightyear is correct, maybe I am missing the point ?
 

lamp

New member
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
528
Sexual pertners during life -time between 3 and 6
Is this a 'real' statistic? I assume it is correct . . . just checking

I basicly kill them when I show them some barrier in their life that is like 10 years ahead. (especially NFPs) Since I place their entire exploring thing in the context of space and time and show them how much time they have left. (or something)
But then do they not have time to prepare for the barrier? Or do you show them an impossible barrier . . .


I never had a close friendship with another person. What is simply because I was uninterested in emotional exchanges.
something feels off about your reasoning here. I guess my first thought is that (close) friendships dont have to be emotional





As a person I place almost no value on "the" journey. The only thing that matters to me in is the final outcome and everything else is technically irrelevant.
Not sure if this is relevant but I am more focused on doing something well than on winning/goals/outcomes.

Over time the approaches (focus on technique vs focus on goal) generate similar outcomes but I do see them as different.






In my entire life I never got drunk or hight bacause that does not make any sense.
Does sobriety make any sense?
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,839
Do you guys think there can be something that can be called "repressed thinking" ?
(something like repressed feeling)
 

Matthew_Z

That chalkboard guy
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
1,256
MBTI Type
xxxx
While I do realize that my life in finite and that, chances are, I'm likely going to be well within the range of "average," I don't accept the notion that only the final product is what matters. If the outcome is almost certainly death, why don't I just off myself now? The period where I'm not going to be around to be capable of caring is inevitable, no? What would be the point of advancing this arbitrary existence if it's all going to end?

The end point in a given timeframe is merely the end point. It's the one I can't control. It's so much more fun to mess with things now rather than sacrifice a near meaningless existence for a near meaningless end. As far as I know, I can't go back in time. I accept that the end will come, but until then I'm going to enjoy myself, die, and probably be almost completely forgotten in less than 100 years, my name never to be uttered again outside of some genealogy research.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
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May 3, 2009
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25,183
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ISFP
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6w7
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sx

Hmmm...I suppose if you make a passionate decision with your heart when you secretly have doubts to how logical or practical it might be in the long run, that might be repressed thinking. I guess.

Some people might actually benefit from repressed thinking, on rare occasions where emotions should take just a little more priority.
 

Colors

The Destroyer
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Apr 24, 2007
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1,276
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ISTP
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5w4
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so/sx
Replying to the OP... So? That's not a reaction, or a approach, that's a recitation. What are you going to *do* about it?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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sx/sp
...I could go on since I have more of this, But I think that this is enough to persent my case/point. So maybe Lightyear is correct, maybe I am missing the point ?

Yeah, I'm gonna be blunt here, since I think you can take it in stride too:

1. Nothing wrong with the OP, if that's what you do naturally, then that is what you do. I am all for people not being apologetic for being who they are.

but...

2. Ho hum, BORING. Maybe you can find some people who can lock into that level of communication, but if I want a computer printout, I will go read one. I don't feel any sort of presence behind the post, it's just a datagrid... hence sort of uninteresting and not much for me to explore or connect with. You feel one-dimensional to me in your approach to others.

I mean, there a lot of OTHER elements to the birth of a child to connect with beside this one, so if this is ALL you do...? Meh. And I'm pretty thoughtful and can appreciate hardcore thinking and your sort of perspective (as one of many), so I can't even imagine how the SF's read you or how they might take the detached thing personally.

To connect with most people, you'd have to add a little bit of humanity in there... subjective personal relevance and interest. To them, she's not a statistic, she's their BABY... the embodiment of hopes and dreams... focus of all they are as people... etc.
 
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