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[Ti] Does Ti always "feel" right?

sculpting

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About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."

The same day I had spent about two hours in depth with my entp friend discussing FiTe/FeTi differences in worldview. After the convo she looked at me and said "Why is Fi/Te always right?" My mouth gaped a little. i dunno..

Rather than an admission of error I had spent two hours trying to give her the Fi/Te perspective from an enfp/istj vantage point and using that to justify our actions, rather than admit there was any flaw or issue in the actions. This seems to happen here to an extent as well.

WTF? Big Red flag.

So some questions related to Ti. I'd like to try and identify symmetry if present.

Q's:
Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)

Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)

If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?

What input is required to change the answer?

What time frame is involved in changing the answer?

 

Fluffywolf

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Ti explores, finds the arguements, finds the proof. When Ti thinks it's right, in most cases it is right. Unless the Ti user is under false assumptions in the first place. (Intelligence does play a part)

However, Ti is not absolute. But it will not waver unless proven wrong.

But Ti doesn't really feel right or wrong. It weighs aspects in moral issues sometimes though which is a subjective aspect of Ti, but it always has quite some arguements backing it up. It's based on facts, wether they're true or not. A mature Ti always has that in the back of his mind. We wish to explore and grow. Thus we aim to keep an open mind. Knowing you can't possible know everything is enough to at least stay humble enough to admit a fault and change an opinion. Ti will never hold on to an opinion once it is in the mind of the user refuted. Ti is not capable of lying to itself. Fi can do that for Ti though. :D

When Ti realizes it is wrong, due to new facts popping up or by existing facts being refuted, the change of opinion is instantanious.
 

Totenkindly

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But Ti doesn't really feel right or wrong. It weighs in moral issues, but it always has quite some arguements backing it up. It's based on facts, wether they're true or not. A mature Ti always has that in the back of his mind. We wish to explore and grow. Thus we aim to keep an open mind. Knowing you can't possible know everything is enough to at least stay humble enough to admit a fault and change an opinion. Ti will never hold on to an opinion once it is in the mind of the user refuted. Fi can do that for Ti though. :D

When Ti realizes it is wrong, due to new facts popping up or by existing facts being refuted, the change of opinion is instantanious.

Generally, when I separate my moral training from my rational thinking, this is how the rational thinking works. Something either is either "right" conceptually or "wrong" -- i.e., correct or incorrect -- and my values and feelings have nothing to do with it. I often feel trapped by my rational thinking because I do not want to believe certain things or might want to avoid committing to an answer... but once I perceive something, I can't not accept it. If I've seen it to be true, then it's true until some other information changes it; and meanwhile, I can't pretend I didn't see it or live with integrity in a way that denies it.

Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)

Totally, it's like if we both get the same info, we have the same conclusions... immediately. We usually dicker around only based on areas of specialty, where someone has access to information the other did not, and so throws a twist in things.

Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)

My INFP SO says this, that he "feels" when something is right. It's such a curious thing and I'm still trying to get my head around it.

But yes, there seems to me to be something similar, it's a sense of "balance" in the answer. When the answer is not balanced, I am tense; when it is balanced, I am at rest and at peace, there is no "tension" to the big picture that I experience inside. Isn't it a relief and wonder to just look at something and see it fitting together cohesively and coherently? And isn't it tensing to see a system where pieces are moving along clumsily and any second might just start throwing bits of itself and collapse destructively?

If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?

See above.

Everything fits together seamlessly.

It does "feel" good -- closure and cohesion.

What input is required to change the answer?

Validated information is enough to make me shift a picture.
Unvalidated information is enough to make me look for more information, if it's in an area I haven't already explored.

Getting older, I've found I use intuition more and more, or "tag" things in my head. I've seen enough patterns play out, I can have a good idea of what the results will already be.

What time frame is involved in changing the answer?

Like Fwolf says, it just happens. Every second, the mental framework is recompiling to adjust for any flex/changes in the system. So a change/shift occurs pretty instantaneously, although it might take a little time to catch ALL the ramifications of a particular change. But the broad ones are noted immediately.
 

Fluffywolf

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Generally, when I separate my moral training from my rational thinking, this is how the rational thinking works. Something either is either "right" conceptually or "wrong" -- i.e., correct or incorrect -- and my values and feelings have nothing to do with it. I often feel trapped by my rational thinking because I do not want to believe certain things or might want to avoid committing to an answer... but once I perceive something, I can't not accept it. If I've seen it to be true, then it's true until some other information changes it; and meanwhile, I can't pretend I didn't see it or live with integrity in a way that denies it.

Hah, I just edited that in before you posted that. "Ti is not capable of lying to itself." :p

Trying to avoid commitment, or trying not to believe certain things because they're not to your liking can be achieved through Fi though. If your Fi goes "The world is fake, our thoughts are limited, there are dimensions beyond our comprehension and everything we think is as much worth as an illusion." It's an opinion that Ti can't refute. And it leaves Ti confuzzled. Then Ti will still believe its true to itself, while still being able to follow Fi, so Fi starts steering Ti in directions it would not have gone alone.

By the way, wanting this (find a break from the constant rationality) is something all INTP's deal with at points in their lives. Only unhealthy INTP's actually achieve this. :p

I once achieved it, and it took me several years to get back on the actual 'as objective as possible' rational path. :(
 

JocktheMotie

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Not really sure if you're looking at "right" vs "wrong" here...I'd say "consistency" or "symmetry" among data and their implicated ideas. Ti will always maintain that this consistency and relationship is correct until new data becomes available, and when it does, like Fluffywolf said the new information is assimilated and incorporated into the framework relatively quickly.

However, when Ti can be wrong is when it disagrees with one of the principles that have been used to design the argument in the first place. The problem with Ti is that these principles are inherently subjective and some can forget that. One of my problems with arguments is that I recognize this subjectivity, and when I encounter someone who cleary uses a different set of principles as criteria for "truth" I know I won't get anywhere, so I won't "argue" as much as I will try to illuminate perspectives.
 

Totenkindly

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If your Fi goes "The world is fake, our thoughts are limited, there are dimensions beyond our comprehension and everything we think is as much worth as an illusion." It's an opinion that Ti can't refute. And it leaves Ti confuzzled. Then Ti will still believe its true to itself, while still being able to follow Fi, so Fi starts steering Ti in directions it would not have gone alone.

I don't know if I've done that.

I've had a more N approach -- "it's possible all this is fake" AKA solipsism -- but T always says, "Okay, let's weigh the odds; chances aren't very good at all for that scenario to be true, and in the end you still just have to make the most reasonable decisions you can, so... use your head, Jenny."

By the way, wanting this (find a break from the constant rationality) is something all INTP's deal with at points in their lives. Only unhealthy INTP's actually achieve this. :p

I usually find room for flex by noting the above -- i.e., being aware of realistic possibilities and then fitting my values into them.

It just bites, though; my values change as soon as I learn something new or become aware of a possibility.

I had a lot of reasons fight off an Fi approach to life for years, I couldn't afford it. I still only seem to have just enough few core values (broad ones) to keep me anchored within me but otherwise I'm still who I was.
 

INTPness

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Fluffywolf had some good points. Ti is open-minded (there could always be something I've forgotten to consider or some "other way" of looking at this), but if I've thought something out thoroughly, I'm confident in it and I'm going with it. I think Ne probably *helps* in keeping an open mind because Ne is always aware of various possibilities.

I have noticed when I'm in a debate/argument with someone, for example, that I'm presenting my side with confidence - I'm backing it up with all the facts and knowledge that I have obtained, but if the person has good counter-arguments, then I am simultaneously aware (in the back of my mind) ALL the possible comebacks or points-of-view that they may present. It's like I'm playing devil's advocate with myself while I talk to them. I'm thinking "I pretty much know I'm right here, but what if this person suddenly decided to present it this way? I've never looked at it from that angle before." I don't know if that's Ne aiding Ti, or just Ti being open to all possibilities. It's like contingencies are being made in one instant for all possible scenarios.

To try to answer your questions:

Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)

It does happen. I may not be a absolute "mirror", but there's a "same-wavelength" vibe. I've had an ENTP tell me before (after a political discussion with a 3rd party) that she didn't totally agree with my political views (she agreed more with the other person's views), but that she TOTALLY followed my thought process, open-mindedness, and approach to the argument. I've also met a person (not knowing they were an INTP) and the back-and-forth banter that followed was unbelievable for about 2 hours straight. Finishing each other's sentences, etc. Totally the same wavelength.

That's the big thing I see. I may not always agree with what the other Ti user is actually saying, but I usually get their "process". I can see very clearly that they have an open mind and that they have thought things out. They aren't just spouting off at the mouth.

Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)


I touched on this a little bit at the beginning of my post, but I think I feel that my conclusions are "right" to the degree that I've thought them out and thought about alternatives and really dissected the situation from all angles. If I've really analyzed and dissected something over and over with rigorous study and with a fine-toothed comb, then I feel that I am VERY CLOSE to knowing for certain what I am talking about. There's always that 1% thing in my head though - I can't know everything, and I've been surprised before by some new revelation, had my eyes opened up by someone else's point of view, so I really try to avoid being dogmatic. It really depends on who I'm talking to and how they are dialoguing with me. If it's clear that they haven't thought things out and they're just trying to sound smart, then I get very dogmatic because I KNOW that they really have no clue what they're talking about. They haven't dissected it like I have, they've maybe spent 30 minutes thinking about it, while I may have spent months studying it with much enthusiasm. There's just too many angles and variables that they haven't even considered.

But, if someone is coming at me with something that really makes sense and has some real thought behind it, then I become very open. My 99% sureness, will maybe go down to 80% and I'll think, "Hmmm........let's talk about this. Maybe I haven't fully explored this like I thought."

If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?

Pretty much the same answer as the previous question. It feels correct to the degree to which I have analyzed it (which is usually quite a bit) but it's always open to new discussion and the "possibility" that I've reached a faulty conclusion.

What input is required to change the answer?

Your argument/point of view has to be logically sound. If your premises are faulty to begin with, then there's really no point discussing your conclusion. That's what I mentioned earlier about being able to tell if someone has even thought about what they're talking about. If you're just jumping from A to Q without there being any real connection between A and Q, then you're just talking to entertain yourself. If the person at least has made logical conclusions and given the topic real thought, then it opens me up and I want to talk further, (a) so I can learn from you, and (b) to see where you're coming from.

There is one other area for me that I've been working on. It deals mainly with F's. An example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.

So, this is a friend that means a lot to me and whose opinion I value greatly. I don't want to cause hurt to this person and so I can accept what she is saying and man up and apologize. I myself would not have been hurt or felt betrayed in a similar situation, but I'm getting to a place where I no longer need to hash out the logic of a situation like this. I just apologize to her, and be careful not to commit the same offense in the future, and let her know that everything is all good. She may not have convinced me logically, but if nothing else I've been made aware that there are certain things that affect people in certain ways (even if they are outside of my own paradigm or outside of my own way of thinking). I'm OK with this.

What time frame is involved in changing the answer?

Usually instantaneously or not at all. And then when I go home and analyze it further and ponder over it, it strengthens or solidifies with time.
 

Fluffywolf

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Not really sure if you're looking at "right" vs "wrong" here...I'd say "consistency" or "symmetry" among data and their implicated ideas. Ti will always maintain that this consistency and relationship is correct until new data becomes available, and when it does, like Fluffywolf said the new information is assimilated and incorporated into the framework relatively quickly.

However, when Ti can be wrong is when it disagrees with one of the principles that have been used to design the argument in the first place. The problem with Ti is that these principles are inherently subjective and some can forget that. One of my problems with arguments is that I recognize this subjectivity, and when I encounter someone who cleary uses a different set of principles as criteria for "truth" I know I won't get anywhere, so I won't "argue" as much as I will try to illuminate perspectives.

I have that too, but I am capable of finding middle grounds out of neccesity.

If a consensus needs to be reached, or if true rationality just not cuts it, despite realizing the subjectivity, Ti can still argue fervently to the best of its ability. Realizing its potential futility. It's ultimatly a moral issue, but yes, as long as the subjective issue can be disregarded, Ti most definatly will try to avoid. And it will also not reach a definitive conclusion when it knows it isn't based on solid facts. Wether that thought is outspoken or not.

When the people Ti argues with are seens as intelligent and worthwhile people for debate, The Ti user will start tennising back and forth ideas and perspectives in order to broaden its view on the subject, in the hopes of finding some clue or fact that can definitively asnwer the problem. Or at the very least, reach a conclusion of lesser proportions that can be sufficient for the problem in order to move on.


By the way, shouldn't you be able to find those middle grounds too? I mean, you are here on this MBTI forum, most of everything here is based on assumptions and little hard fact. ;)
 

Totenkindly

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... example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.

So, this is a friend that means a lot to me and whose opinion I value greatly. I don't want to cause hurt to this person and so I can accept what she is saying and man up and apologize. I myself would not have been hurt or felt betrayed in a similar situation, but I'm getting to a place where I no longer need to hash out the logic of a situation like this. I just apologize to her, and be careful not to commit the same offense in the future, and let her know that everything is all good. She may not have convinced me logically, but I've been made aware that there are things that affect people outside of my own paradigm or outside of my own way of thinking.

Yup, good response.

I remember operating that way too in the past but eventually realized an impersonal truth: The idea of my having good motives and the idea that they still had their feelings hurt are both realities that can exist simultaneously. It's a truth, not a contradiction. My motives have nothing to do with their perceptions and/or hurt feelings.

So like you I learned to acknowledge that reality -- I still will make it clear my intentions were good, but I also will apologize and let them know I did not want to hurt them, and a reasonable person will meet you there. (it's the ones who insist on their realities being dominant and yours being invalid are the ones to not waste time on.)
 

Fluffywolf

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Yup, good response.

I remember operating that way too in the past but eventually realized an impersonal truth: The idea of my having good motives and the idea that they still had their feelings hurt are both realities that can exist simultaneously. It's a truth, not a contradiction. My motives have nothing to do with their perceptions and/or hurt feelings.

So like you I learned to acknowledge that reality -- I still will make it clear my intentions were good, but I also will apologize and let them know I did not want to hurt them, and a reasonable person will meet you there. (it's the ones who insist on their realities being dominant and yours being invalid are the ones to not waste time on.)

I used to feel like that, verrrry strongly. Now not anymore. When I experience someone getting hurt, whilest I had my best intentions. I need to let that person know that it was not my intention to hurt. But the person has to know that what I said I said for a reason. Not that I ask that the person needs to heed my words, or has to put much value in it. I still will not change my opinion regardless, and all I ask for is that the person allows me to have that view or opinion. And I most definatly won't evade similar situations in the future.

I realise this makes me much less socially compatible to others. But that's something I have no problem with nowadays.

In the past, when I did get evasive, when I did heed other peoples pain, despite my intentions and wishes. And tried to adjust. I never felt good about myself, and I felt my relations with people were fake. (To the point in which in one romantic relationship I got so distant, so evasive, that I basicly stopped interacting on any deep level with them, so that I didn't have to deal with feeling untrue to the person I loved. Which naturally lead to break up.)

So, despite I can be honestly sorry to someone for the pain I've caused, despite my best intentions. They still have to somehow accept me and deal with it. Because it's an integral part of me. And if they can't, and the relationship shatters, then that's just that.
 

Fluffywolf

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No one has to agree with me. But as long as am not shown a different truth, the truth I know is the truth I live. And this inescapable fact has, due to experiences, been strengthened to the point it can not be corrupted again.

This is a 'feeling' I have now, very strongly. And it is very Ti driven. And I name it feeling, because it certainly stirs my emotions when mentioning it. :D
 

Fluffywolf

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I think for ENTP's Ti works pretty much exactly the same. But their Ti is not so dominant it sticks with them non stop and they can allow their Ne to indulge in all things interesting without the constant Ti control. And rather process their Ti after gathering experiences with Ne. Ti is also always important with them, but it's rather in the back row of the army, overlooking the battlefield. Instead of fighting the fight on the frontlines, like it does for INTP's.

But it still functions in the same way for both ntp's.
 

Seymour

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First of all, great thread! Thanks to Happy Puppy for starting it and for all the thoughtful posts.

About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."

I found that quote to be one of the least Fi-typical in the whole thread (to me). I tend to say sorry a lot, and my standards are much higher than I can consistently achieve. Sorry to be mildly off topic. :newwink:

I do have enough Ti to see parallels between Fi's and Ti's appreciation of elegance and congruence. I think Ti gets positive emotional feedback from considering something logical, consistent and minimal. Fi gets positive emotional feedback when things are aesthetically pleasing and congruent with one's principles.

I have noticed when I'm in a debate/argument with someone, for example, that I'm presenting my side with confidence - I'm backing it up with all the facts and knowledge that I have obtained, but if the person has good counter-arguments, then I am simultaneously aware (in the back of my mind) ALL the possible comebacks or points-of-view that they may present. It's like I'm playing devil's advocate with myself while I talk to them. I'm thinking "I pretty much know I'm right here, but what if this person suddenly decided to present it this way? I've never looked at it from that angle before." I don't know if that's Ne aiding Ti, or just Ti being open to all possibilities. It's like contingencies are being made in one instant for all possible scenarios.

I find this eerily familiar, but from more of an Fi perspective. As I'm talking with someone, I'm definitely building up a mental model of what they are getting at, and making adjustments as they continue to speak. I'm also leaping ahead, thinking about the implications of what they are saying and what they are likely to say next. This experience seems to be different than that of some of my more Sensing coworkers, who are more likely be thrown if someone accidentally switches two terms during an explanation.

I'm also not threatened by considering ideas and concepts that I disagree with. While I'm talking with someone, often I can see why they believe what they believe, even if I think they are wrong.

It does happen. I may not be a absolute "mirror", but there's a "same-wavelength" vibe. I've had an ENTP tell me before (after a political discussion with a 3rd party) that she didn't totally agree with my political views (she agreed more with the other person's views), but that she TOTALLY followed my thought process, open-mindedness, and approach to the argument. I've also met a person (not knowing they were an INTP) and the back-and-forth banter that followed was unbelievable for about 2 hours straight. Finishing each other's sentences, etc. Totally the same wavelength.

Does sound similar to two xNFPs that are on the same wavelength.

That's the big thing I see. I may not always agree with what the other Ti user is actually saying, but I usually get their "process". I can see very clearly that they have an open mind and that they have thought things out. They aren't just spouting off at the mouth.

Also similar, but I think Fi is less interested in intellectual rigor. Fi tends to value people's opinions and experiences just because they are theirs, and they have a right to their own opinions. I do have enough Ti though to get irritated by stupidity and poorly thought out opinions, though.

But, if someone is coming at me with something that really makes sense and has some real thought behind it, then I become very open. My 99% sureness, will maybe go down to 80% and I'll think, "Hmmm........let's talk about this. Maybe I haven't fully explored this like I thought."

[...]

Your argument/point of view has to be logically sound. If your premises are faulty to begin with, then there's really no point discussing your conclusion. That's what I mentioned earlier about being able to tell if someone has even thought about what they're talking about. If you're just jumping from A to Q without there being any real connection between A and Q, then you're just talking to entertain yourself. If the person at least has made logical conclusions and given the topic real thought, then it opens me up and I want to talk further, (a) so I can learn from you, and (b) to see where you're coming from.

I think this is really interesting, too. Ti seems more open-minded and detached from the subject at hand. An Fi-dom IS his or her values, on some levels. When one's opinions get attacked, it can feel like an attack on one's person. I get the sense that Ti users more often welcome correction and logical critique, and it is seen as helpful for the other party.

There is one other area for me that I've been working on. It deals mainly with F's. An example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.

We Fi-doms also have to deal with our emotional reactions being inconvenient and "stupid," too. Occasionally, my feelings will be hurt even though I know it's about something minor and it would be more convenient for everyone if I could just let it go. The problem is that I can't be unaware of my emotional state, and being upset gets in the way of other processing. So then I have deal with it anyway, which is a drag if that means bringing up the issue with someone else.

However, Fi considers emotions to be vital sources of data about situations. One's emotional reactions are often in response to subtle pieces of data that one hasn't even noticed consciously. Taking emotional responses seriously sometimes clues one into important aspects of situations that one would have otherwise missed. I get the feeling that Ti doesn't have the same attitude towards emotional responses. When do you guys see emotions and important sources of data? How do you tend to deal with inner emotional upset?

Usually instantaneously or not at all. And then when I go home and analyze it further and ponder over it, it strengthens or solidifies with time.

I think an Fi user will tend to just defend his or her opinions during a conversation. If one's opinions are being logically attacked, then the Fi user may be forced to just turtle, since Fi can't always defend against Ti. It doesn't help that the rules for intellectual debate seem to come from Ti rather than Fi.

Later, though, I think Fi users will try to process whatever data was presented. Fi is clearly more filtering than Ti, so not everything gets through. However, I think Fi-users do take others' views seriously, so it's not like we all live in hermetically sealed bubbles (at least when we are functioning healthily). It also helps a lot to have reassurances that the other person isn't attacked us, and means well by critiquing our opinions.
 

Fluffywolf

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There's a huge difference between being dominate Fi. Or an INTP using the cognative function Fi as well. An INTP would not likely use Fi for the 'right' (lol irony) reasons, and that in itself undermines the potential of Fi. Do keep that in mind. :D

What I mean is that, you either truely believe in Fi. Or like an INTP, you use (abuse) it as a tool in order to attempt and make things more 'livable'.
 

Seymour

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There's a huge difference between being dominate Fi. Or an INTP using the cognative function Fi as well. An INTP would not likely use Fi for the 'right' (lol irony) reasons, and that in itself undermines the potential of Fi. Do keep that in mind. :D

What I mean is that, you either truely believe in Fi. Or like an INTP, you use (abuse) it as a tool in order to attempt and make things more 'livable'.

Huh... that's interesting. I make my living mostly through Ti, not Fi. I feel like my Ti got trained in formal education, and then even more through job experience (since I work as a programmer). I admit I use my Ti more specifically and less globally than a real Ti user would. I also use it to back goals that mostly come from Fi.

It seems like Fi doesn't get the same formal training and that it's not valued as much by our culture in general. I wonder if Ti users would see Fi as generally more useful if they had been forced to develop it to some degree.

(Not that some Ti users can't and don't develop Fi, it just seems less required by our culture.)
 

Fluffywolf

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Huh... that's interesting. I make my living mostly through Ti, not Fi. I feel like my Ti got trained in formal education, and then even more through job experience (since I work as a programmer). I admit I use my Ti more specifically and less globally than a real Ti user would. I also use it to back goals that mostly come from Fi.

It seems like Fi doesn't get the same formal training and that it's not valued as much by our culture in general. I wonder if Ti users would see Fi as generally more useful if they had been forced to develop it to some degree.

(Not that some Ti users can't and don't develop Fi, it just seems less required by our culture.)

Ti dom doesn't really work with Fi, and shouldn't be used for big descisions or the Ti dom will regret it. Wether their Fi is mature or not. Ti dom will not accept Fi no matter what. Especially not where things matter for the Ti dom. Interests, relations, everything that is important to Ti. If Fi gets involved, the Ti user gets hurt.

Using Ti as a backbone to Fi, I suppose Ti works slightly different. Your Fi still holds the ropes, but you expand your Fi and find confidence in yourself by backing up Fi with by using Ti. Not as a dominant function, but as a helpful tool. Ti doesn't make the descisions. Ti just strengthens Fi. That way around, I can totally see it work, positively.

I honestly don't think Ti doms should try to work on their Fi. I've done that. But if you're Ti dom, you're Ti dom. It just doesn't work that way around. Ti as a dominant function is too strict.
 

onemoretime

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About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."

The same day I had spent about two hours in depth with my entp friend discussing FiTe/FeTi differences in worldview. After the convo she looked at me and said "Why is Fi/Te always right?" My mouth gaped a little. i dunno..

Rather than an admission of error I had spent two hours trying to give her the Fi/Te perspective from an enfp/istj vantage point and using that to justify our actions, rather than admit there was any flaw or issue in the actions. This seems to happen here to an extent as well.

WTF? Big Red flag.

I find it interesting that this is a "flaw", so to speak. It seems like many of us have trouble with the old phrase "reasonable people can disagree".

So some questions related to Ti. I'd like to try and identify symmetry if present.

Q's:
Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)

I've never really thought of it that way. I've always taken the position that when something is objectively true, others will come to the same conclusion, just because it's there. The "get out of my head" commentary is just Fe common-ground building, I think.

Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)

See above. It doesn't really "feel" they're right, but it "knows" when the logical chain follows. As such, to change the conclusion, you have to change the input data earlier in the chain.
If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?

Maybe not to the core of our being, but there is a sense of satisfaction similar to that of placing a puzzle piece in its right spot. When someone says "It just clicked"? That's more descriptive than analogous.
What input is required to change the answer?

Hard evidence that one of the earlier premises was flawed or incomplete.
What time frame is involved in changing the answer?

Enough to process it all through. It can be on the order of seconds, or months.
 

Seymour

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Ti dom doesn't really work with Fi, and shouldn't be used for big descisions or the Ti dom will regret it. Wether their Fi is mature or not. Ti dom will not accept Fi no matter what. Especially not where things matter for the Ti dom. Interests, relations, everything that is important to Ti. If Fi gets involved, the Ti user gets hurt.

Well, I admit I make big decisions using Fi, unless they are entirely technical ones. Even then I find that the Fi aesthetic sense tends to overlap a bit with the Ti appreciation of conceptual elegance.

Using Ti as a backbone to Fi, I suppose Ti works slightly different. Your Fi still holds the ropes, but you expand your Fi and find confidence in yourself by backing up Fi with by using Ti. Not as a dominant function, but as a helpful tool. Ti doesn't make the descisions. Ti just strengthens Fi. That way around, I can totally see it work, positively.

It does seem to work fine for me. I think that's one reason why I've been puzzled by all the Ti/Fi conflict on the boards, since internally I use them in tandem a lot. At work, I definitely use Ti to optimize and evaluate different options as I design and program, and Fi doesn't get in the way because it's mostly technical decisions. Fi does provide a lot of the motivation, though, since what I write is eventually used by people (some of whom I know).

I honestly don't think Ti doms should try to work on their Fi. I've done that. But if you're Ti dom, you're Ti dom. It just doesn't work that way around. Ti as a dominant function is too strict.

That's interesting that the relationship isn't symmetric. It does seem like the nature of the functions themselves play a role in what the effect is of having a certain function in given slot (like tertiary, auxiliary or whatever).

Thanks for your responses. It's interesting to hear about Ti from a Ti-dom's perspective.
 

Fluffywolf

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Thanks for your responses. It's interesting to hear about Ti from a Ti-dom's perspective.

You're welcome, did my best to answer it to the best of my ability. :smile:
 
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