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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Does Ti always "feel" right?

    About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."

    The same day I had spent about two hours in depth with my entp friend discussing FiTe/FeTi differences in worldview. After the convo she looked at me and said "Why is Fi/Te always right?" My mouth gaped a little. i dunno..

    Rather than an admission of error I had spent two hours trying to give her the Fi/Te perspective from an enfp/istj vantage point and using that to justify our actions, rather than admit there was any flaw or issue in the actions. This seems to happen here to an extent as well.

    WTF? Big Red flag.

    So some questions related to Ti. I'd like to try and identify symmetry if present.

    Q's:
    Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)

    Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)

    If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?

    What input is required to change the answer?

    What time frame is involved in changing the answer?


  2. #2
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Ti explores, finds the arguements, finds the proof. When Ti thinks it's right, in most cases it is right. Unless the Ti user is under false assumptions in the first place. (Intelligence does play a part)

    However, Ti is not absolute. But it will not waver unless proven wrong.

    But Ti doesn't really feel right or wrong. It weighs aspects in moral issues sometimes though which is a subjective aspect of Ti, but it always has quite some arguements backing it up. It's based on facts, wether they're true or not. A mature Ti always has that in the back of his mind. We wish to explore and grow. Thus we aim to keep an open mind. Knowing you can't possible know everything is enough to at least stay humble enough to admit a fault and change an opinion. Ti will never hold on to an opinion once it is in the mind of the user refuted. Ti is not capable of lying to itself. Fi can do that for Ti though.

    When Ti realizes it is wrong, due to new facts popping up or by existing facts being refuted, the change of opinion is instantanious.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But Ti doesn't really feel right or wrong. It weighs in moral issues, but it always has quite some arguements backing it up. It's based on facts, wether they're true or not. A mature Ti always has that in the back of his mind. We wish to explore and grow. Thus we aim to keep an open mind. Knowing you can't possible know everything is enough to at least stay humble enough to admit a fault and change an opinion. Ti will never hold on to an opinion once it is in the mind of the user refuted. Fi can do that for Ti though.

    When Ti realizes it is wrong, due to new facts popping up or by existing facts being refuted, the change of opinion is instantanious.
    Generally, when I separate my moral training from my rational thinking, this is how the rational thinking works. Something either is either "right" conceptually or "wrong" -- i.e., correct or incorrect -- and my values and feelings have nothing to do with it. I often feel trapped by my rational thinking because I do not want to believe certain things or might want to avoid committing to an answer... but once I perceive something, I can't not accept it. If I've seen it to be true, then it's true until some other information changes it; and meanwhile, I can't pretend I didn't see it or live with integrity in a way that denies it.

    Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)
    Totally, it's like if we both get the same info, we have the same conclusions... immediately. We usually dicker around only based on areas of specialty, where someone has access to information the other did not, and so throws a twist in things.

    Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)
    My INFP SO says this, that he "feels" when something is right. It's such a curious thing and I'm still trying to get my head around it.

    But yes, there seems to me to be something similar, it's a sense of "balance" in the answer. When the answer is not balanced, I am tense; when it is balanced, I am at rest and at peace, there is no "tension" to the big picture that I experience inside. Isn't it a relief and wonder to just look at something and see it fitting together cohesively and coherently? And isn't it tensing to see a system where pieces are moving along clumsily and any second might just start throwing bits of itself and collapse destructively?

    If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?
    See above.

    Everything fits together seamlessly.

    It does "feel" good -- closure and cohesion.

    What input is required to change the answer?
    Validated information is enough to make me shift a picture.
    Unvalidated information is enough to make me look for more information, if it's in an area I haven't already explored.

    Getting older, I've found I use intuition more and more, or "tag" things in my head. I've seen enough patterns play out, I can have a good idea of what the results will already be.

    What time frame is involved in changing the answer?
    Like Fwolf says, it just happens. Every second, the mental framework is recompiling to adjust for any flex/changes in the system. So a change/shift occurs pretty instantaneously, although it might take a little time to catch ALL the ramifications of a particular change. But the broad ones are noted immediately.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Generally, when I separate my moral training from my rational thinking, this is how the rational thinking works. Something either is either "right" conceptually or "wrong" -- i.e., correct or incorrect -- and my values and feelings have nothing to do with it. I often feel trapped by my rational thinking because I do not want to believe certain things or might want to avoid committing to an answer... but once I perceive something, I can't not accept it. If I've seen it to be true, then it's true until some other information changes it; and meanwhile, I can't pretend I didn't see it or live with integrity in a way that denies it.
    Hah, I just edited that in before you posted that. "Ti is not capable of lying to itself." :p

    Trying to avoid commitment, or trying not to believe certain things because they're not to your liking can be achieved through Fi though. If your Fi goes "The world is fake, our thoughts are limited, there are dimensions beyond our comprehension and everything we think is as much worth as an illusion." It's an opinion that Ti can't refute. And it leaves Ti confuzzled. Then Ti will still believe its true to itself, while still being able to follow Fi, so Fi starts steering Ti in directions it would not have gone alone.

    By the way, wanting this (find a break from the constant rationality) is something all INTP's deal with at points in their lives. Only unhealthy INTP's actually achieve this. :P

    I once achieved it, and it took me several years to get back on the actual 'as objective as possible' rational path.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #5
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Not really sure if you're looking at "right" vs "wrong" here...I'd say "consistency" or "symmetry" among data and their implicated ideas. Ti will always maintain that this consistency and relationship is correct until new data becomes available, and when it does, like Fluffywolf said the new information is assimilated and incorporated into the framework relatively quickly.

    However, when Ti can be wrong is when it disagrees with one of the principles that have been used to design the argument in the first place. The problem with Ti is that these principles are inherently subjective and some can forget that. One of my problems with arguments is that I recognize this subjectivity, and when I encounter someone who cleary uses a different set of principles as criteria for "truth" I know I won't get anywhere, so I won't "argue" as much as I will try to illuminate perspectives.



  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If your Fi goes "The world is fake, our thoughts are limited, there are dimensions beyond our comprehension and everything we think is as much worth as an illusion." It's an opinion that Ti can't refute. And it leaves Ti confuzzled. Then Ti will still believe its true to itself, while still being able to follow Fi, so Fi starts steering Ti in directions it would not have gone alone.
    I don't know if I've done that.

    I've had a more N approach -- "it's possible all this is fake" AKA solipsism -- but T always says, "Okay, let's weigh the odds; chances aren't very good at all for that scenario to be true, and in the end you still just have to make the most reasonable decisions you can, so... use your head, Jenny."

    By the way, wanting this (find a break from the constant rationality) is something all INTP's deal with at points in their lives. Only unhealthy INTP's actually achieve this. :P
    I usually find room for flex by noting the above -- i.e., being aware of realistic possibilities and then fitting my values into them.

    It just bites, though; my values change as soon as I learn something new or become aware of a possibility.

    I had a lot of reasons fight off an Fi approach to life for years, I couldn't afford it. I still only seem to have just enough few core values (broad ones) to keep me anchored within me but otherwise I'm still who I was.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Fluffywolf had some good points. Ti is open-minded (there could always be something I've forgotten to consider or some "other way" of looking at this), but if I've thought something out thoroughly, I'm confident in it and I'm going with it. I think Ne probably *helps* in keeping an open mind because Ne is always aware of various possibilities.

    I have noticed when I'm in a debate/argument with someone, for example, that I'm presenting my side with confidence - I'm backing it up with all the facts and knowledge that I have obtained, but if the person has good counter-arguments, then I am simultaneously aware (in the back of my mind) ALL the possible comebacks or points-of-view that they may present. It's like I'm playing devil's advocate with myself while I talk to them. I'm thinking "I pretty much know I'm right here, but what if this person suddenly decided to present it this way? I've never looked at it from that angle before." I don't know if that's Ne aiding Ti, or just Ti being open to all possibilities. It's like contingencies are being made in one instant for all possible scenarios.

    To try to answer your questions:

    Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)
    It does happen. I may not be a absolute "mirror", but there's a "same-wavelength" vibe. I've had an ENTP tell me before (after a political discussion with a 3rd party) that she didn't totally agree with my political views (she agreed more with the other person's views), but that she TOTALLY followed my thought process, open-mindedness, and approach to the argument. I've also met a person (not knowing they were an INTP) and the back-and-forth banter that followed was unbelievable for about 2 hours straight. Finishing each other's sentences, etc. Totally the same wavelength.

    That's the big thing I see. I may not always agree with what the other Ti user is actually saying, but I usually get their "process". I can see very clearly that they have an open mind and that they have thought things out. They aren't just spouting off at the mouth.

    [B]Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)
    I touched on this a little bit at the beginning of my post, but I think I feel that my conclusions are "right" to the degree that I've thought them out and thought about alternatives and really dissected the situation from all angles. If I've really analyzed and dissected something over and over with rigorous study and with a fine-toothed comb, then I feel that I am VERY CLOSE to knowing for certain what I am talking about. There's always that 1% thing in my head though - I can't know everything, and I've been surprised before by some new revelation, had my eyes opened up by someone else's point of view, so I really try to avoid being dogmatic. It really depends on who I'm talking to and how they are dialoguing with me. If it's clear that they haven't thought things out and they're just trying to sound smart, then I get very dogmatic because I KNOW that they really have no clue what they're talking about. They haven't dissected it like I have, they've maybe spent 30 minutes thinking about it, while I may have spent months studying it with much enthusiasm. There's just too many angles and variables that they haven't even considered.

    But, if someone is coming at me with something that really makes sense and has some real thought behind it, then I become very open. My 99% sureness, will maybe go down to 80% and I'll think, "Hmmm........let's talk about this. Maybe I haven't fully explored this like I thought."

    If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?
    Pretty much the same answer as the previous question. It feels correct to the degree to which I have analyzed it (which is usually quite a bit) but it's always open to new discussion and the "possibility" that I've reached a faulty conclusion.

    What input is required to change the answer?
    Your argument/point of view has to be logically sound. If your premises are faulty to begin with, then there's really no point discussing your conclusion. That's what I mentioned earlier about being able to tell if someone has even thought about what they're talking about. If you're just jumping from A to Q without there being any real connection between A and Q, then you're just talking to entertain yourself. If the person at least has made logical conclusions and given the topic real thought, then it opens me up and I want to talk further, (a) so I can learn from you, and (b) to see where you're coming from.

    There is one other area for me that I've been working on. It deals mainly with F's. An example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.

    So, this is a friend that means a lot to me and whose opinion I value greatly. I don't want to cause hurt to this person and so I can accept what she is saying and man up and apologize. I myself would not have been hurt or felt betrayed in a similar situation, but I'm getting to a place where I no longer need to hash out the logic of a situation like this. I just apologize to her, and be careful not to commit the same offense in the future, and let her know that everything is all good. She may not have convinced me logically, but if nothing else I've been made aware that there are certain things that affect people in certain ways (even if they are outside of my own paradigm or outside of my own way of thinking). I'm OK with this.

    What time frame is involved in changing the answer?
    Usually instantaneously or not at all. And then when I go home and analyze it further and ponder over it, it strengthens or solidifies with time.

  8. #8
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Not really sure if you're looking at "right" vs "wrong" here...I'd say "consistency" or "symmetry" among data and their implicated ideas. Ti will always maintain that this consistency and relationship is correct until new data becomes available, and when it does, like Fluffywolf said the new information is assimilated and incorporated into the framework relatively quickly.

    However, when Ti can be wrong is when it disagrees with one of the principles that have been used to design the argument in the first place. The problem with Ti is that these principles are inherently subjective and some can forget that. One of my problems with arguments is that I recognize this subjectivity, and when I encounter someone who cleary uses a different set of principles as criteria for "truth" I know I won't get anywhere, so I won't "argue" as much as I will try to illuminate perspectives.
    I have that too, but I am capable of finding middle grounds out of neccesity.

    If a consensus needs to be reached, or if true rationality just not cuts it, despite realizing the subjectivity, Ti can still argue fervently to the best of its ability. Realizing its potential futility. It's ultimatly a moral issue, but yes, as long as the subjective issue can be disregarded, Ti most definatly will try to avoid. And it will also not reach a definitive conclusion when it knows it isn't based on solid facts. Wether that thought is outspoken or not.

    When the people Ti argues with are seens as intelligent and worthwhile people for debate, The Ti user will start tennising back and forth ideas and perspectives in order to broaden its view on the subject, in the hopes of finding some clue or fact that can definitively asnwer the problem. Or at the very least, reach a conclusion of lesser proportions that can be sufficient for the problem in order to move on.


    By the way, shouldn't you be able to find those middle grounds too? I mean, you are here on this MBTI forum, most of everything here is based on assumptions and little hard fact.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    ... example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.

    So, this is a friend that means a lot to me and whose opinion I value greatly. I don't want to cause hurt to this person and so I can accept what she is saying and man up and apologize. I myself would not have been hurt or felt betrayed in a similar situation, but I'm getting to a place where I no longer need to hash out the logic of a situation like this. I just apologize to her, and be careful not to commit the same offense in the future, and let her know that everything is all good. She may not have convinced me logically, but I've been made aware that there are things that affect people outside of my own paradigm or outside of my own way of thinking.
    Yup, good response.

    I remember operating that way too in the past but eventually realized an impersonal truth: The idea of my having good motives and the idea that they still had their feelings hurt are both realities that can exist simultaneously. It's a truth, not a contradiction. My motives have nothing to do with their perceptions and/or hurt feelings.

    So like you I learned to acknowledge that reality -- I still will make it clear my intentions were good, but I also will apologize and let them know I did not want to hurt them, and a reasonable person will meet you there. (it's the ones who insist on their realities being dominant and yours being invalid are the ones to not waste time on.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yup, good response.

    I remember operating that way too in the past but eventually realized an impersonal truth: The idea of my having good motives and the idea that they still had their feelings hurt are both realities that can exist simultaneously. It's a truth, not a contradiction. My motives have nothing to do with their perceptions and/or hurt feelings.

    So like you I learned to acknowledge that reality -- I still will make it clear my intentions were good, but I also will apologize and let them know I did not want to hurt them, and a reasonable person will meet you there. (it's the ones who insist on their realities being dominant and yours being invalid are the ones to not waste time on.)
    I used to feel like that, verrrry strongly. Now not anymore. When I experience someone getting hurt, whilest I had my best intentions. I need to let that person know that it was not my intention to hurt. But the person has to know that what I said I said for a reason. Not that I ask that the person needs to heed my words, or has to put much value in it. I still will not change my opinion regardless, and all I ask for is that the person allows me to have that view or opinion. And I most definatly won't evade similar situations in the future.

    I realise this makes me much less socially compatible to others. But that's something I have no problem with nowadays.

    In the past, when I did get evasive, when I did heed other peoples pain, despite my intentions and wishes. And tried to adjust. I never felt good about myself, and I felt my relations with people were fake. (To the point in which in one romantic relationship I got so distant, so evasive, that I basicly stopped interacting on any deep level with them, so that I didn't have to deal with feeling untrue to the person I loved. Which naturally lead to break up.)

    So, despite I can be honestly sorry to someone for the pain I've caused, despite my best intentions. They still have to somehow accept me and deal with it. Because it's an integral part of me. And if they can't, and the relationship shatters, then that's just that.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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