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  1. #31
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Whereas INTPs and ENTPs use Ti in a much more advanced manner. With it being part of the main army. INTP's the spearhead, ENTP's the Archers. :P

    Pardon the fairly lame analogy, I seem to enjoy it.

    Ti itself seems a very unchanging cognative function. It only does a particular thing and can't really be used any differently. It only differs in how much you use it and to what end. And only INTPs and ENTPs rely on it greatly.
    Much thanks for the commentary and discussion so far. I really like the above analogy FW, but what about ISTP/ESTPs? They use Ti exceptionally well. Hmmm, I must go think on the ISTP and his change time span....

    Thanks Seymour! Part of these thoughts were also prompted from your comment on the other thread regarding Ti/Fi and how Fi takes time to think through changes...

    I have always thought Ti and Fi are very similar cognitive programs-they are doing the same thing but Fi has to deal with a much nastier set of incoming data. People are kinda messy. So Fi ends up being happy with exceptionally messy, partially matched solutions, contaminated and coded with massive emotional tags? I dunno...

    Ti=logical precision
    Fi=elmer's glue in buckets with crayon smiley faces on the sides

  2. #32
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    I have always thought Ti and Fi are very similar cognitive programs-they are doing the same thing but Fi has to deal with a much nastier set of incoming data. People are kinda messy. So Fi ends up being happy with exceptionally messy, partially matched solutions, contaminated and coded with massive emotional tags? I dunno...

    Ti=logical precision
    Fi=elmer's glue in buckets with crayon smiley faces on the sides
    I think this has to do with the nature of Fi in that the values it operates by are very personal and the Fi user identifies with those values in a very, very intimate manner. It seems like the values are extensions of themselves, and if the values are violated, then they feel violated. At least, that is my perception. But while this can be a source for sensitivity, it can also be an "anchor" of sorts in the face of conflicting external values.



  3. #33
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I find this eerily familiar, but from more of an Fi perspective. As I'm talking with someone, I'm definitely building up a mental model of what they are getting at, and making adjustments as they continue to speak. I'm also leaping ahead, thinking about the implications of what they are saying and what they are likely to say next. This experience seems to be different than that of some of my more Sensing coworkers, who are more likely be thrown if someone accidentally switches two terms during an explanation.

    Later, though, I think Fi users will try to process whatever data was presented. Fi is clearly more filtering than Ti, so not everything gets through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Huh... that's interesting. I make my living mostly through Ti, not Fi. I feel like my Ti got trained in formal education, and then even more through job experience (since I work as a programmer). I admit I use my Ti more specifically and less globally than a real Ti user would. I also use it to back goals that mostly come from Fi.

    It seems like Fi doesn't get the same formal training and that it's not valued as much by our culture in general. I wonder if Ti users would see Fi as generally more useful if they had been forced to develop it to some degree.

    (Not that some Ti users can't and don't develop Fi, it just seems less required by our culture.)
    Seymour, Noigmn and blackcat both wrote at different times they feel like they use Fi like Ti. Do you think as problems become less and less people centric, Fi becomes more robust and logical, thus approximating Ti? I have no idea, just throwing it out there. I cant tell if I do this or not. Fi seems massively diffuse, then Te chunks everything in buckets. Maybe this is clearer for Fi doms?

    There are several Fi doms/auxs here who work in technical areas-Scott and Noigmn are both physicists.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I find it interesting that this is a "flaw", so to speak. It seems like many of us have trouble with the old phrase "reasonable people can disagree".
    It was a convo of massive meta proportions. She was correct in that I, as an individual Fite, understanding what I do, should be open to redefining my expectations and ideas about life understanding the more optimistic side of life that feti can see. I was correct, in that, you cannot expect the masses to be able to do that, so to implement change on a large scale in an organization, an feti has to be willing to address the issues that accompany folks who are fite.

    But fite is a petulant whiny bitch and likes to pout so it took a few days mulling the thought over to recognize she was correct. It's how we roll...

  4. #34
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I think this has to do with the nature of Fi in that the values it operates by are very personal and the Fi user identifies with those values in a very, very intimate manner. It seems like the values are extensions of themselves, and if the values are violated, then they feel violated. At least, that is my perception. But while this can be a source for sensitivity, it can also be an "anchor" of sorts in the face of conflicting external values.
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I think this has to do with the nature of Fi in that the values it operates by are very personal and the Fi user identifies with those values in a very, very intimate manner. It seems like the values are extensions of themselves, and if the values are violated, then they feel violated. At least, that is my perception. But while this can be a source for sensitivity, it can also be an "anchor" of sorts in the face of conflicting external values.
    I think you are definitely on target. That's why in another thread I was recommending Ti users give Fi users time for offline processing after presenting conflicting information. In the moment the impulse towards self-preservation is likely to win out over doing any real logical processing. Things only get worse if the Ti user pushes for instant acknowledgement and value-adjustment on the Fi user's part.

    For things that aren't perceived as personal threats, I think Fi users are pretty willing to entertain all kinds of perspectives. Some of the "I know what I feel and I know what works for me" attitude is useful for being unperturbed when encountered a foreign perspective (even an irritational one). I admit we aren't flexible at all when something core is at odds, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Seymour, Noigmn and blackcat both wrote at different times they feel like they use Fi like Ti. Do you think as problems become less and less people centric, Fi becomes more robust and logical, thus approximating Ti? I have no idea, just throwing it out there. I cant tell if I do this or not. Fi seems massively diffuse, then Te chunks everything in buckets. Maybe this is clearer for Fi doms?
    I think it's possible that we technical INFPs are using some weirdly optimized form of Fi, but I suspect mostly not given personal experience. I work as a computer programmer at the lowest levels of our software framework. I tend to work on some of the most complicated and finicky parts of our code base. When I first started programming full time, I would be exhausted at the end of the day. I also found I felt emotionally deadened at the end of the day, and it would take a bit to shift gears to being more emotionally-oriented and people-centric.

    One could argue that what I'm using all day is Te, but I still suck at the more Te parts of things. I'm terrible at long-range planning, scheduling and lining up resources. I'm good at optimizing what I'm doing moment to moment, debugging, making minimal changes for maximal benefits, fitting things into pre-existing models, communicating precisely, etc. Those are things I associate with Ti.

    These days, I don't have that issue with switching gears and going from being people-focused and emotional to being logical and critical. I suspect that's because Ti is no longer as much as growing edge for me, and I've learned how to better reconcile my Ti with my Fi.

    Anyway, sorry to go on so much about me me me me, but it seemed relevant.


    By the way, I think for the STPs Ti use is more focused on the "in the moment optimizations" aspect of things. I think their enjoyment of brinksmanship and pushing limits is because of the intersection of feeding Se and honing and finding the limits of Ti-based skills.

    I think it's true that Ti is more "in the moment" generally than Te is. Ne users like to generalize, though, so you end up with a mental framework being continually adjusted and optimized as data becomes available.

  5. #35
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Ti=logical precision
    Fi=elmer's glue in buckets with crayon smiley faces on the sides
    It's called 'Fuzzy' logic And yeah, I usually don't need firm, definite logic before I decide something (which is not necessarily a good thing)

    Quote Originally Posted by JockTheMotie
    I think this has to do with the nature of Fi in that the values it operates by are very personal and the Fi user identifies with those values in a very, very intimate manner. It seems like the values are extensions of themselves, and if the values are violated, then they feel violated. At least, that is my perception. But while this can be a source for sensitivity, it can also be an "anchor" of sorts in the face of conflicting external values.
    I think of it as being the final decider. I can use the logic and facts that Ne+Si+Ti gives me to make a decision, but depending on how important (or how much 'value' I place in) that decision is, my Fi can over-rule it. It definitely will look irrational to others, but if I feel that I'm 'right', then that's what I'm gonna decide, logic be damned . But I could see how if what I'm pondering is far away from my core, Fi could approximate Ti in its cost-benefit analysis.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  6. #36
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Sometimes I like to say, "Fuck it," and stir the pot with my stick of Ne, but that tends to happen if I don't feel like devoting any energy to something.

    I suppose I could break it down like this:
    If it's something I'm invested in and have spent a lot of time on, I'll usually "feel" right unless, of course, I am not sure about my conclusions.
    If it's something I don't care about, or don't particularly feel like caring about at that moment, I'll BS all day long.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

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