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  1. #11
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    What input is required to change the answer?

    What time frame is involved in changing the answer?

    Sufficient (strong) evidence to the contrary. Words alone are meaningless.

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    No one has to agree with me. But as long as am not shown a different truth, the truth I know is the truth I live. And this inescapable fact has, due to experiences, been strengthened to the point it can not be corrupted again.

    This is a 'feeling' I have now, very strongly. And it is very Ti driven. And I name it feeling, because it certainly stirs my emotions when mentioning it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I think for ENTP's Ti works pretty much exactly the same. But their Ti is not so dominant it sticks with them non stop and they can allow their Ne to indulge in all things interesting without the constant Ti control. And rather process their Ti after gathering experiences with Ne. Ti is also always important with them, but it's rather in the back row of the army, overlooking the battlefield. Instead of fighting the fight on the frontlines, like it does for INTP's.

    But it still functions in the same way for both ntp's.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #14
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    First of all, great thread! Thanks to Happy Puppy for starting it and for all the thoughtful posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."
    I found that quote to be one of the least Fi-typical in the whole thread (to me). I tend to say sorry a lot, and my standards are much higher than I can consistently achieve. Sorry to be mildly off topic.

    I do have enough Ti to see parallels between Fi's and Ti's appreciation of elegance and congruence. I think Ti gets positive emotional feedback from considering something logical, consistent and minimal. Fi gets positive emotional feedback when things are aesthetically pleasing and congruent with one's principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post

    I have noticed when I'm in a debate/argument with someone, for example, that I'm presenting my side with confidence - I'm backing it up with all the facts and knowledge that I have obtained, but if the person has good counter-arguments, then I am simultaneously aware (in the back of my mind) ALL the possible comebacks or points-of-view that they may present. It's like I'm playing devil's advocate with myself while I talk to them. I'm thinking "I pretty much know I'm right here, but what if this person suddenly decided to present it this way? I've never looked at it from that angle before." I don't know if that's Ne aiding Ti, or just Ti being open to all possibilities. It's like contingencies are being made in one instant for all possible scenarios.
    I find this eerily familiar, but from more of an Fi perspective. As I'm talking with someone, I'm definitely building up a mental model of what they are getting at, and making adjustments as they continue to speak. I'm also leaping ahead, thinking about the implications of what they are saying and what they are likely to say next. This experience seems to be different than that of some of my more Sensing coworkers, who are more likely be thrown if someone accidentally switches two terms during an explanation.

    I'm also not threatened by considering ideas and concepts that I disagree with. While I'm talking with someone, often I can see why they believe what they believe, even if I think they are wrong.


    It does happen. I may not be a absolute "mirror", but there's a "same-wavelength" vibe. I've had an ENTP tell me before (after a political discussion with a 3rd party) that she didn't totally agree with my political views (she agreed more with the other person's views), but that she TOTALLY followed my thought process, open-mindedness, and approach to the argument. I've also met a person (not knowing they were an INTP) and the back-and-forth banter that followed was unbelievable for about 2 hours straight. Finishing each other's sentences, etc. Totally the same wavelength.
    Does sound similar to two xNFPs that are on the same wavelength.


    That's the big thing I see. I may not always agree with what the other Ti user is actually saying, but I usually get their "process". I can see very clearly that they have an open mind and that they have thought things out. They aren't just spouting off at the mouth.
    Also similar, but I think Fi is less interested in intellectual rigor. Fi tends to value people's opinions and experiences just because they are theirs, and they have a right to their own opinions. I do have enough Ti though to get irritated by stupidity and poorly thought out opinions, though.


    But, if someone is coming at me with something that really makes sense and has some real thought behind it, then I become very open. My 99% sureness, will maybe go down to 80% and I'll think, "Hmmm........let's talk about this. Maybe I haven't fully explored this like I thought."

    [...]

    Your argument/point of view has to be logically sound. If your premises are faulty to begin with, then there's really no point discussing your conclusion. That's what I mentioned earlier about being able to tell if someone has even thought about what they're talking about. If you're just jumping from A to Q without there being any real connection between A and Q, then you're just talking to entertain yourself. If the person at least has made logical conclusions and given the topic real thought, then it opens me up and I want to talk further, (a) so I can learn from you, and (b) to see where you're coming from.
    I think this is really interesting, too. Ti seems more open-minded and detached from the subject at hand. An Fi-dom IS his or her values, on some levels. When one's opinions get attacked, it can feel like an attack on one's person. I get the sense that Ti users more often welcome correction and logical critique, and it is seen as helpful for the other party.


    There is one other area for me that I've been working on. It deals mainly with F's. An example: I had an F recently (who I had been involved with on a friendship level) tell me that I betrayed her/hurt her with my actions. When I explained to her why, from my point of view, my intentions were nothing but good and, therefore, I couldn't possibly see how she could feel betrayed - she simply said, "Don't you see. Your logic doesn't matter here. That's how it felt to me." She was serious and she was really hurt.
    We Fi-doms also have to deal with our emotional reactions being inconvenient and "stupid," too. Occasionally, my feelings will be hurt even though I know it's about something minor and it would be more convenient for everyone if I could just let it go. The problem is that I can't be unaware of my emotional state, and being upset gets in the way of other processing. So then I have deal with it anyway, which is a drag if that means bringing up the issue with someone else.

    However, Fi considers emotions to be vital sources of data about situations. One's emotional reactions are often in response to subtle pieces of data that one hasn't even noticed consciously. Taking emotional responses seriously sometimes clues one into important aspects of situations that one would have otherwise missed. I get the feeling that Ti doesn't have the same attitude towards emotional responses. When do you guys see emotions and important sources of data? How do you tend to deal with inner emotional upset?

    Usually instantaneously or not at all. And then when I go home and analyze it further and ponder over it, it strengthens or solidifies with time.
    I think an Fi user will tend to just defend his or her opinions during a conversation. If one's opinions are being logically attacked, then the Fi user may be forced to just turtle, since Fi can't always defend against Ti. It doesn't help that the rules for intellectual debate seem to come from Ti rather than Fi.

    Later, though, I think Fi users will try to process whatever data was presented. Fi is clearly more filtering than Ti, so not everything gets through. However, I think Fi-users do take others' views seriously, so it's not like we all live in hermetically sealed bubbles (at least when we are functioning healthily). It also helps a lot to have reassurances that the other person isn't attacked us, and means well by critiquing our opinions.

  5. #15
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    There's a huge difference between being dominate Fi. Or an INTP using the cognative function Fi as well. An INTP would not likely use Fi for the 'right' (lol irony) reasons, and that in itself undermines the potential of Fi. Do keep that in mind.

    What I mean is that, you either truely believe in Fi. Or like an INTP, you use (abuse) it as a tool in order to attempt and make things more 'livable'.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #16
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    There's a huge difference between being dominate Fi. Or an INTP using the cognative function Fi as well. An INTP would not likely use Fi for the 'right' (lol irony) reasons, and that in itself undermines the potential of Fi. Do keep that in mind.

    What I mean is that, you either truely believe in Fi. Or like an INTP, you use (abuse) it as a tool in order to attempt and make things more 'livable'.
    Huh... that's interesting. I make my living mostly through Ti, not Fi. I feel like my Ti got trained in formal education, and then even more through job experience (since I work as a programmer). I admit I use my Ti more specifically and less globally than a real Ti user would. I also use it to back goals that mostly come from Fi.

    It seems like Fi doesn't get the same formal training and that it's not valued as much by our culture in general. I wonder if Ti users would see Fi as generally more useful if they had been forced to develop it to some degree.

    (Not that some Ti users can't and don't develop Fi, it just seems less required by our culture.)

  7. #17
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Huh... that's interesting. I make my living mostly through Ti, not Fi. I feel like my Ti got trained in formal education, and then even more through job experience (since I work as a programmer). I admit I use my Ti more specifically and less globally than a real Ti user would. I also use it to back goals that mostly come from Fi.

    It seems like Fi doesn't get the same formal training and that it's not valued as much by our culture in general. I wonder if Ti users would see Fi as generally more useful if they had been forced to develop it to some degree.

    (Not that some Ti users can't and don't develop Fi, it just seems less required by our culture.)
    Ti dom doesn't really work with Fi, and shouldn't be used for big descisions or the Ti dom will regret it. Wether their Fi is mature or not. Ti dom will not accept Fi no matter what. Especially not where things matter for the Ti dom. Interests, relations, everything that is important to Ti. If Fi gets involved, the Ti user gets hurt.

    Using Ti as a backbone to Fi, I suppose Ti works slightly different. Your Fi still holds the ropes, but you expand your Fi and find confidence in yourself by backing up Fi with by using Ti. Not as a dominant function, but as a helpful tool. Ti doesn't make the descisions. Ti just strengthens Fi. That way around, I can totally see it work, positively.

    I honestly don't think Ti doms should try to work on their Fi. I've done that. But if you're Ti dom, you're Ti dom. It just doesn't work that way around. Ti as a dominant function is too strict.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #18
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    About two weeks ago onemoretime made a post in the "Fi is..." thread that said "Fi never has to say it is sorry."

    The same day I had spent about two hours in depth with my entp friend discussing FiTe/FeTi differences in worldview. After the convo she looked at me and said "Why is Fi/Te always right?" My mouth gaped a little. i dunno..

    Rather than an admission of error I had spent two hours trying to give her the Fi/Te perspective from an enfp/istj vantage point and using that to justify our actions, rather than admit there was any flaw or issue in the actions. This seems to happen here to an extent as well.

    WTF? Big Red flag.
    I find it interesting that this is a "flaw", so to speak. It seems like many of us have trouble with the old phrase "reasonable people can disagree".

    So some questions related to Ti. I'd like to try and identify symmetry if present.

    Q's:
    Do you find other Ti users can "mirror" your thoughts accurately or think the same thing you would in a situation-like Fi users mirror feelings? (I have seen a few "get out of my head" comments that may be indicative of this)
    I've never really thought of it that way. I've always taken the position that when something is objectively true, others will come to the same conclusion, just because it's there. The "get out of my head" commentary is just Fe common-ground building, I think.

    Does Ti "feel" the conclusions it reaches are "right" the way Fi does? (Feel may not be the best word choice)
    See above. It doesn't really "feel" they're right, but it "knows" when the logical chain follows. As such, to change the conclusion, you have to change the input data earlier in the chain.
    If you reach a logical conclusion does it "feel" correct?
    Maybe not to the core of our being, but there is a sense of satisfaction similar to that of placing a puzzle piece in its right spot. When someone says "It just clicked"? That's more descriptive than analogous.
    What input is required to change the answer?
    Hard evidence that one of the earlier premises was flawed or incomplete.
    What time frame is involved in changing the answer?
    Enough to process it all through. It can be on the order of seconds, or months.

  9. #19
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Ti dom doesn't really work with Fi, and shouldn't be used for big descisions or the Ti dom will regret it. Wether their Fi is mature or not. Ti dom will not accept Fi no matter what. Especially not where things matter for the Ti dom. Interests, relations, everything that is important to Ti. If Fi gets involved, the Ti user gets hurt.
    Well, I admit I make big decisions using Fi, unless they are entirely technical ones. Even then I find that the Fi aesthetic sense tends to overlap a bit with the Ti appreciation of conceptual elegance.


    Using Ti as a backbone to Fi, I suppose Ti works slightly different. Your Fi still holds the ropes, but you expand your Fi and find confidence in yourself by backing up Fi with by using Ti. Not as a dominant function, but as a helpful tool. Ti doesn't make the descisions. Ti just strengthens Fi. That way around, I can totally see it work, positively.
    It does seem to work fine for me. I think that's one reason why I've been puzzled by all the Ti/Fi conflict on the boards, since internally I use them in tandem a lot. At work, I definitely use Ti to optimize and evaluate different options as I design and program, and Fi doesn't get in the way because it's mostly technical decisions. Fi does provide a lot of the motivation, though, since what I write is eventually used by people (some of whom I know).

    I honestly don't think Ti doms should try to work on their Fi. I've done that. But if you're Ti dom, you're Ti dom. It just doesn't work that way around. Ti as a dominant function is too strict.
    That's interesting that the relationship isn't symmetric. It does seem like the nature of the functions themselves play a role in what the effect is of having a certain function in given slot (like tertiary, auxiliary or whatever).

    Thanks for your responses. It's interesting to hear about Ti from a Ti-dom's perspective.

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post

    Thanks for your responses. It's interesting to hear about Ti from a Ti-dom's perspective.
    You're welcome, did my best to answer it to the best of my ability.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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