[INTJ] General Impressions of the INTJ

[Economica]

Quick reply before bed (well, before shutting down the laptop):

That's funny I have to ask - over compensating, perhaps?

1. I want you to ask. (Even if I sometimes take a while to think of a reply. :blushing
2. Of course it's overcompensating but I'm not sure whether it is for lack of empathy or for lack of attention. :blushing: (Introverted bubble...) I'll ask him later to elaborate.

Okay, enough blushing - goodnight all!

 

[ptgatsby]

I think it's just a plain (mis)understanding of the definition. I have tons of empathy. (see dictionary.com: "the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.")

That's a good point. I was using it in the sense MBTI uses it, which really ignores the part you bolded.

How so? Geographically? Socio-politically?

Hmm, more the culture you were raised in, which probably is a combination of both. What were you socialised under? (ie: Asian family with American influences, South American family with European influences).

 

[Night]

Hmm, more the culture you were raised in, which probably is a combination of both. What were you socialised under? (ie: Asian family with American influences, South American family with European influences).

My family was poor.

Both parents had advanced degrees (Mother - Master's / Father - PhD work), but made poor socio-fiscal choices when I was growing up.

As for general influence, I would say that I matured in a lower-class Caucasian household with regionally-minded (Wisconsin) pressures as the spinal column for much of my early development.

Out of curiosity, is this what you (approximately) anticipated?

 

[Nocapszy]

A tricky customer. I haven't known many INTJ's, but all except for one (who was a real pain in the ass by all accounts) have been people I've had mixed feelings about. On the one hand, there's no doubt I've profoundly respected them and their opinions have always meant a lot to me - they're among the few people whose criticism really could upset me. And sometimes they did, and though not always in constructive/enlightening way, I never questioned their good motives.

I've always found them hard to establish an easy-going, cheerful relationship with - they seem to actively resist any kind of 'bonding' and are very hard to mend things with if you make a not-so-good first impression on them. But I wanted to mend it, where with many other people I just don't care.

I think all said and done, we both respect each other and sorta have this weird relationship where we work well together and see that we have quite a bit in common and by rights, should become good friends... but there's just something in the way... could never put my finger on it.

Sounds like me and my INTJ brother and both my INTJ friends.

I think I know the reason as well. Night my man I hope you don't mind my imposing on your explaining, but I've been wondering about this myself, and only just came up with something that makes much sense.

In general, ENTPs are highly competitive. Oneupsmanship and all that. You know the bit. It's not that ENTPs want to win for winning's sake, but instead, want to be SEEN winning. Being thought of highly is the reward. In essence they want their actions to elicit a response indicative of respect.

Such a reaction is impossible to evoke from an INTJ intentionally, so the ENTP can never be sure he's respected.

The reason are the intuitions. Ne is an imposing one which again, desires respect. Ni is more interested in self mastery. The INTJ knows the ENTP is trying to extract respect from him, and will refuse to cooperate as a result. This is of course only when coupled with respective styles of thinking.

 

[ptgatsby]

Out of curiosity, is this what you (approximately) anticipated?

Nope, had no idea. I was just wondering if there were any relationship, but I don't see any connection between them here. I suppose personal development is probably too strong to really get much from environment though... especially for INTJs.

 

[Night]

Nope, had no idea. I was just wondering if there were any relationship, but I don't see any connection between them here. I suppose personal development is probably too strong to really get much from environment though... especially for INTJs.

Actually, my "J" tattoo is probably consequent to the instability of my youth.

 

[Night]

Sounds like me and my INTJ brother and both my INTJ friends.

I think I know the reason as well. Night my man I hope you don't mind my imposing on your explaining, but I've been wondering about this myself, and only just came up with something that makes much sense.

In general, ENTPs are highly competitive. Oneupsmanship and all that. You know the bit. It's not that ENTPs want to win for winning's sake, but instead, want to be SEEN winning. Being thought of highly is the reward. In essence they want their actions to elicit a response indicative of respect.

Such a reaction is impossible to evoke from an INTJ intentionally, so the ENTP can never be sure he's respected.

The reason are the intuitions. Ne is an imposing one which again, desires respect. Ni is more interested in self mastery. The INTJ knows the ENTP is trying to extract respect from him, and will refuse to cooperate as a result. This is of course only when coupled with respective styles of thinking.

ENTP is the Type I would most readily trade into.

I find that I get along best with the Ne of the ENTP.

Cheers!

 

[Metamorphosis]

Concerning relationship "using," I would have to agree with Userhername. I can't even comprehend the success of any relationship in which both people did not benefit mutually from the other, even if this benefit is only momentary happiness.

And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No. It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it). I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.

I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.

 

[Usehername]

Concerning relationship "using," I would have to agree with Userhername. I can't even comprehend the success of any relationship in which both people did not benefit mutually from the other, even if this benefit is only momentary happiness.

And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No. It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it). I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.

I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.

Important point.

Possibly why a lot of people on the boards don't "seem" as normal INTJ as others--they've consciously valued something else, and worked hard to develop skills that come naturally to others.

 

[Night]

And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No.

Is this a cost-to-benefit strategy? The logic of your execution interests me less than the motivation for its design.

It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it).

Interesting point. Empathy increases the probability of developing rapport, which translates into an increased potential for trust. Trust (even if it a 1-way association, built on "faulty" ground) allows for opportunities unavailable before the conversion. Thoughts?

I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.

Perhaps you've answered my question.

I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.

This is an interesting statement. I find that certain individuals (not you, necessarily) assemble a host of ideals typically encountered within the general template of the MBTI profile and work to incorporate said tenets into a meaningful skill set. In this sense, they empirically "prove" to themselves they can articulate the mantra offered by the MBTI assessment and are worthy of its endorsement. This is moreso true of NFs, in my experience.

Have you encountered similar behaviors?

 

[Night]

Important point.

Possibly why a lot of people on the boards don't "seem" as normal INTJ as others--they've consciously valued something else, and worked hard to develop skills that come naturally to others.

Is it logical to conclude that you believe personality is an anchored concept, invulnerable to erosive forces?

If so, at what point do you believe one's personality is fully solidified?
If not, can you expand on your earlier point? (see bolded)

 

[Nocapszy]

ENTP is the Type I would most readily trade into.

I find that I get along best with the Ne of the ENTP.

Cheers!

Added: Both of my INTJ friends say the same about me. /add



What a great post. If this doesn't epitomize the Ni of the INTJ, I don't know what does.

In displaying high respect for not just me but the entire type, you've proven me wrong. In proving me wrong you've proven me right.

Was this your intent or just a lucky side effect?

 

[Usehername]

Is it logical to conclude that you believe personality is an anchored concept, invulnerable to erosive forces?

If so, at what point do you believe one's personality is fully solidified?
If not, can you expand on your earlier point? (see bolded)

I don't know that it's totally resistant to change... but I can, with certainty, voice that I am currently an INTJ, have been an INTJ for as far back as I can reliably base my memories from (as I only learned about MBTI at 19 and I'm 21) and don't expect to change.

I couldn't change my inner motivations into that of an ENFJ, but I mention a few times on these boards that I can be perceived as one in social interaction (because I've consciously worked hard to achieve their skills). However, I'm not motivated with the same inner pulls that all ENFJs are, my motivations are that of an INTJ (albeit a balanced one who grew up in a household full of Fs). I still like to be seen as competent and ingenious as opposed to the NF stuff, for example.

I don't know when personality is fully achieved. I have heard stories of me as a child that solidify me as an NT, but I also identify with the INxJ description of personality page for the kids personalities for a younger me.

 

[niffer]

The shyer ones seem a little aloof sometimes, but they're generally really engaging. Extremely funny, always seem to be kidding around. Seem to be quite hardworking. Very reasonable people.

Not really people I would open up my emotions to though.

 

[Usehername]

The shyer ones seem a little aloof sometimes, but they're generally really engaging. Extremely funny, always seem to be kidding around. Seem to be quite hardworking. Very reasonable people.

Not really people I would open up my emotions to though.

nnnoo

do it niffer!! when my ENFP friend cried in front of me (male) it made me a better person that he thought I was safe enough to do that... and i promise i responded in an appropriate manner that helped him sort through his stuff.

and the positive emotions of the ENFP are just the best.

 

[Night]

just a lucky side effect?

Ha - sadly, I'm not that clever.


Damn nice to see you on this o' the fence, Nocapszy.

 

[Night]

I don't know that it's totally resistant to change... but I can, with certainty, voice that I am currently an INTJ, have been an INTJ for as far back as I can reliably base my memories from (as I only learned about MBTI at 19 and I'm 21) and don't expect to change.

If we assume a base definition - directed from your insight - I think we can assemble an approximate model relative to your experience. It sounds like you strongly believe you are INTJ. From this, we can logically conclude you don't believe you are anything else.
Taken further, this pattern could inflate the general ideals of all those who affirm their type as accurate. N cannot be S; E =/= I, etc.

Put simply, you are INTJ because you do not believe you are anything less.

Not that I'm necessarily challenging the validity of your assessment (or the collected evidence you use to bolster your conclusion (memories)), but do you think it possible you have artificially negotiated your experiences? A sort-of reverse engineering scheme, if you like. That is to say, is your taxonomy biased by your affection towards the INTJ standard?

What I'm really asking is how deeply we can be certain we logically divide bias from sincere representation. Yours is similar mine; mine to others...

I couldn't change my inner motivations into that of an ENFJ, but I mention a few times on these boards that I can be perceived as one in social interaction (because I've consciously worked hard to achieve their skills). However, I'm not motivated with the same inner pulls that all ENFJs are, my motivations are that of an INTJ (albeit a balanced one who grew up in a household full of Fs). I still like to be seen as competent and ingenious as opposed to the NF stuff, for example.

By implication, is the NF less likely to produce ingenious behavior? By whose measure is this reliable? Justification for is secondary to the conceptual implementation of the behavior.

I'm not picking on you. I'm trying to highlight the indistinguishable nuances we adhere to, consequent to our impressions of who we are.

Measuring these analytics to our MBTI further instills a sense of certainty as we can justify our application on the basis of credentialed research.

I don't know when personality is fully achieved. I have heard stories of me as a child that solidify me as an NT, but I also identify with the INxJ description of personality page for the kids personalities for a younger me.

Thank you for your detailed response. For what it's worth, I think you are INTJ.

In the end, my conclusions are unavoidably about myself. Personality is an extension of individuality and should be viewed as an organic entity, constantly open to revision as environment necessitates.

My bias is showing...

 

[Nocapszy]

Ha - sadly, I'm not that clever.

Perhaps it escaped even your own consciousness. Ni seems to be elusive even to the user occasionally, or so it appears in my Ni frequenting comrades.

Damn nice to see you on this o' the fence, Nocapszy.

Likewise.

 

[Nocapszy]

Ni seems to be elusive even to the user occasionally, or so it appears in my Ni frequenting comrades.

Additionally, an analogy, if I may be so permitted: I view Ni as comparable to a black hole where internalization is equated with gravity. Not like the other introverted functions who make their presence known even without being expressed explicitly, Ni seems to have such introverted force, (gravity) that everything including light is incapable of escaping the field. Things may surface to conscious awareness, but only if it's outside the strongest part of the gravity. Of course, as Steven Hawking (this is cool, I get to use an Ni user in an analogy comparing the concept that he invented to the process he used to develop it) insightfully points out, all black holes glow, not with light, but with dark matter. Perhaps the analogy ends there but equally as plausible (unless someone knows any specific findings which speak to in opposition) is that information goes into the core and doesn't resurface until the consciousness is ready to handle it and Ni can begin to glow like the dead star.

 

[Night]

Additionally, an analogy, if I may be so permitted: I view Ni as comparable to a black hole where internalization is equated with gravity. Not like the other introverted functions who make their presence known even without being expressed explicitly, Ni seems to have such introverted force, (gravity) that everything including light is incapable of escaping the field. Things may surface to conscious awareness, but only if it's outside the strongest part of the gravity. Of course, as Steven Hawking (this is cool, I get to use an Ni user in an analogy comparing the concept that he invented to the process he used to develop it) insightfully points out, all black holes glow, not with light, but with dark matter. Perhaps the analogy ends there but equally as plausible (unless someone knows any specific findings which speak to in opposition) is that information goes into the core and doesn't resurface until the consciousness is ready to handle it and Ni can begin to glow like the dead star.

Very clever - !