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  1. #41
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quick reply before bed (well, before shutting down the laptop):

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's funny I have to ask - over compensating, perhaps?
    1. I want you to ask. (Even if I sometimes take a while to think of a reply. :blushing
    2. Of course it's overcompensating but I'm not sure whether it is for lack of empathy or for lack of attention. :blushing: (Introverted bubble...) I'll ask him later to elaborate.

    Okay, enough blushing - goodnight all!

  2. #42
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I think it's just a plain (mis)understanding of the definition. I have tons of empathy. (see dictionary.com: "the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.")
    That's a good point. I was using it in the sense MBTI uses it, which really ignores the part you bolded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How so? Geographically? Socio-politically?
    Hmm, more the culture you were raised in, which probably is a combination of both. What were you socialised under? (ie: Asian family with American influences, South American family with European influences).

  3. #43
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, more the culture you were raised in, which probably is a combination of both. What were you socialised under? (ie: Asian family with American influences, South American family with European influences).
    My family was poor.

    Both parents had advanced degrees (Mother - Master's / Father - PhD work), but made poor socio-fiscal choices when I was growing up.

    As for general influence, I would say that I matured in a lower-class Caucasian household with regionally-minded (Wisconsin) pressures as the spinal column for much of my early development.

    Out of curiosity, is this what you (approximately) anticipated?

  4. #44
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    A tricky customer. I haven't known many INTJ's, but all except for one (who was a real pain in the ass by all accounts) have been people I've had mixed feelings about. On the one hand, there's no doubt I've profoundly respected them and their opinions have always meant a lot to me - they're among the few people whose criticism really could upset me. And sometimes they did, and though not always in constructive/enlightening way, I never questioned their good motives.

    I've always found them hard to establish an easy-going, cheerful relationship with - they seem to actively resist any kind of 'bonding' and are very hard to mend things with if you make a not-so-good first impression on them. But I wanted to mend it, where with many other people I just don't care.

    I think all said and done, we both respect each other and sorta have this weird relationship where we work well together and see that we have quite a bit in common and by rights, should become good friends... but there's just something in the way... could never put my finger on it.
    Sounds like me and my INTJ brother and both my INTJ friends.

    I think I know the reason as well. Night my man I hope you don't mind my imposing on your explaining, but I've been wondering about this myself, and only just came up with something that makes much sense.

    In general, ENTPs are highly competitive. Oneupsmanship and all that. You know the bit. It's not that ENTPs want to win for winning's sake, but instead, want to be SEEN winning. Being thought of highly is the reward. In essence they want their actions to elicit a response indicative of respect.

    Such a reaction is impossible to evoke from an INTJ intentionally, so the ENTP can never be sure he's respected.

    The reason are the intuitions. Ne is an imposing one which again, desires respect. Ni is more interested in self mastery. The INTJ knows the ENTP is trying to extract respect from him, and will refuse to cooperate as a result. This is of course only when coupled with respective styles of thinking.

  5. #45
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Out of curiosity, is this what you (approximately) anticipated?
    Nope, had no idea. I was just wondering if there were any relationship, but I don't see any connection between them here. I suppose personal development is probably too strong to really get much from environment though... especially for INTJs.

  6. #46
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Nope, had no idea. I was just wondering if there were any relationship, but I don't see any connection between them here. I suppose personal development is probably too strong to really get much from environment though... especially for INTJs.
    Actually, my "J" tattoo is probably consequent to the instability of my youth.

  7. #47
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Sounds like me and my INTJ brother and both my INTJ friends.

    I think I know the reason as well. Night my man I hope you don't mind my imposing on your explaining, but I've been wondering about this myself, and only just came up with something that makes much sense.

    In general, ENTPs are highly competitive. Oneupsmanship and all that. You know the bit. It's not that ENTPs want to win for winning's sake, but instead, want to be SEEN winning. Being thought of highly is the reward. In essence they want their actions to elicit a response indicative of respect.

    Such a reaction is impossible to evoke from an INTJ intentionally, so the ENTP can never be sure he's respected.

    The reason are the intuitions. Ne is an imposing one which again, desires respect. Ni is more interested in self mastery. The INTJ knows the ENTP is trying to extract respect from him, and will refuse to cooperate as a result. This is of course only when coupled with respective styles of thinking.
    ENTP is the Type I would most readily trade into.

    I find that I get along best with the Ne of the ENTP.

    Cheers!

  8. #48
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Concerning relationship "using," I would have to agree with Userhername. I can't even comprehend the success of any relationship in which both people did not benefit mutually from the other, even if this benefit is only momentary happiness.

    And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No. It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it). I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.

    I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #49
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Concerning relationship "using," I would have to agree with Userhername. I can't even comprehend the success of any relationship in which both people did not benefit mutually from the other, even if this benefit is only momentary happiness.

    And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No. It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it). I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.

    I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.
    Important point.

    Possibly why a lot of people on the boards don't "seem" as normal INTJ as others--they've consciously valued something else, and worked hard to develop skills that come naturally to others.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #50
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post

    And as far as empathy goes...It seems more useful to be able to appear empathetic than to actually be empathetic. There are times when I feel sorry for someone close to me, but does that help them at all? No.
    Is this a cost-to-benefit strategy? The logic of your execution interests me less than the motivation for its design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    It is better for me to comfort them in their times of emotional weakness and then tangibly help them. Empathy doesn't appear to have any use if it only entails sharing someone elses emotional state (not to say that it doesn't, just that I don't see it).
    Interesting point. Empathy increases the probability of developing rapport, which translates into an increased potential for trust. Trust (even if it a 1-way association, built on "faulty" ground) allows for opportunities unavailable before the conversion. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would even classify Economica's/Usehername's pwning of the human system as a process learned by conciously (using T) making an effort to do certain things in our relationships with people. Sometimes it is more helpful to appear a certain way than to actually be that way. In fact, I would still consider "improving our F skills" as a very T thing to do.
    Perhaps you've answered my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I once told my friends that no matter what type I ever appear to be, I am still an INTJ. I have merely improved myself by strengthening certain lacking qualities...a very INTJ thing to do.
    This is an interesting statement. I find that certain individuals (not you, necessarily) assemble a host of ideals typically encountered within the general template of the MBTI profile and work to incorporate said tenets into a meaningful skill set. In this sense, they empirically "prove" to themselves they can articulate the mantra offered by the MBTI assessment and are worthy of its endorsement. This is moreso true of NFs, in my experience.

    Have you encountered similar behaviors?

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