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  1. #31
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Does your fiance experience any level of (wanton) perfectionism? I have a horrific rage-to-dominate (probably unresolved J elements) that can sometimes infect my prerogatives.
    I'm not allowed to load the dishwasher. Or do the laundry. Sometimes not allowed to stir soup... I'd say, yes... yes she does.

    The dominate part only comes out when it needs to be her way... if I don't stack up to how it should be done, then she won't let me do it.

    (from above; I don't stack the dishes tight enough, I don't do laundy well and I make a mess when I cook.)

    INTJ quirks are... unique.

  2. #32
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    However, the connotation to "use" might be the problem... NTJs help others help them, so it's not like a targetted "I'm going to use you then leave you". It has more of a tool approach - use me, use you, achieve goals.

    The unhealthy ones do it short sighted (achieve immediate goal), but the other ones maintain a friendship and make it a two way street.

    But the mentality is always the same. Outside the inner circle, you are either useful or not... there is no middle ground. Some allowances are made for the inner circle, but you better be useful - or just out of their way.
    I was staying out of the "INTJs use people" discussion b/c I didn't think I did it.

    Now, I am just baffled that this is attributed to only NTJs. Excluding types run by their emotions, what other possibility is there to what I bolded that you mentioned?! Surely it would be a waste to invest in relationships that aren't benefiting both parties.(Excluding biological family ties, which I think come with a different set of rules.) Not doing what I bolded that you mentioned is just stupid and holding both parties back.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #33
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I was staying out of the "INTJs use people" discussion b/c I didn't think I did it.

    Now, I am just baffled that this is attributed to only NTJs. Excluding types run by their emotions, what other possibility is there to what I bolded that you mentioned?! Surely it would be a waste to invest in relationships that aren't benefiting both parties.(Excluding biological family ties, which I think come with a different set of rules.) Not doing what I bolded that you mentioned is just stupid and holding both parties back.
    For what it's worth, I wasn't offended.

    Although, it seems likely this statement is beyond my scope. I think I lack historical context.

  4. #34
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Now, I am just baffled that this is attributed to only NTJs. Excluding types run by their emotions, what other possibility is there to what I bolded that you mentioned?! Surely it would be a waste to invest in relationships that aren't benefiting both parties.(Excluding biological family ties, which I think come with a different set of rules.) Not doing what I bolded that you mentioned is just stupid and holding both parties back.
    I always end up hearing this... and it's always from an NTJ

    I'll leave it be, since this isn't the first or second time I think it has been talked about on the board - but I'll say that of all the friends I have, the only two that express it are NTJs. It's not that one should be in an unhealthy relationship - but you defined what a healthy relationship is to you... someone who helps you (of course, you may be helping them too... that's good.)

    I don't see my friends that way at all. I can measure them when I need to, and I drift away from ones that are harmful... but it's a totally different mentality than what I have observed in NTJs (most notably INTJs, however).

  5. #35
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's not that one should be in an unhealthy relationship - but you defined what a healthy relationship is to you... someone who helps you (of course, you may be helping them too... that's good.)
    what could people possibly want relationships for that aren't in some way benefiting them?

    i seriously cannot imagine an alternative that isn't going to hold people back.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #36
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    A tricky customer. I haven't known many INTJ's, but all except for one (who was a real pain in the ass by all accounts) have been people I've had mixed feelings about. On the one hand, there's no doubt I've profoundly respected them and their opinions have always meant a lot to me - they're among the few people whose criticism really could upset me. And sometimes they did, and though not always in constructive/enlightening way, I never questioned their good motives.

    I've always found them hard to establish an easy-going, cheerful relationship with - they seem to actively resist any kind of 'bonding' and are very hard to mend things with if you make a not-so-good first impression on them. But I wanted to mend it, where with many other people I just don't care.

    I think all said and done, we both respect each other and sorta have this weird relationship where we work well together and see that we have quite a bit in common and by rights, should become good friends... but there's just something in the way... could never put my finger on it.
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  7. #37
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I have been relegated to my bed with a laptop which does not allow for comfortable typing, so this will be more shorthand than I'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heh, you beat my fiance with 1. 2, if you include me.
    My inner circle counts 11 people - my SO, two siblings (until recently just one sibling due to the described INTJ mentality (I kid you not )) and eight friends.

    Well, I'll give you that it may be possible no INTJ I know has ever worked on it
    I wasn't very specific before ('the emotion thing' ). I agree that INTJs dislike uncertainty/chaos (though I'm not so sure about 'emotions are pure uncertainty for us') and I agree that we start out emotionally naive, but when we put our minds to it I believe we can, as Usehername once put it so beautifully, pwn the 'human' system.

    I do find that we have our limitations in relationships, but not where you make them out to be. Believe it or not, but we can give emotional support. Incidentally (since this is not intended to back the claim I just made) I just asked my (ENFP) SO about this, and he said that sometimes when he presents a problem I go into emotional support mode by default when he actually really wants me to get analytical. I also err in the expected direction. Striking the balance between analytical mode and empathetic mode (or more accurately, reading people when they are ambiguous/unclear so as to know what they want from me) is hard for me - that's a limitation. Another limitation is that even when I empathize immensely, I don't always know how to express this. A third limitation is that my empathy is, uh, limited, and I don't fake it convincingly. Coincidentally the people who make it to my inner circle are people whose troubles I can empathize with (not the other way around, I swear! ). But the point is that INTJs don't have to be (/stay) emotionally naive. (I won't claim to have pwned myself yet, but I know an INTJ who has pwned himself. If you come to Europe I'll introduce you. )

    (Though, to be fair, my friend has mellowed out now that he's married, so there is change. Now he's raising chickens to take over the world... well, that's his plan. I wish I was kidding. This is a guy with a degree in physics something or another, did systems testing for US defense systems... and wants to buy a ranch and raise chickens. INTJs... I'm sorry, you guys leap around. It's crazy at times.)
    :eek: 100 bucks says he moves from the ranch within a year of moving to it (or at least ditches the chickens).

  8. #38
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    My inner circle counts 11 people - my SO, two siblings (until recently just one sibling due to the described INTJ mentality (I kid you not )) and eight friends.
    You sure you are an INTJ?

    That's higher than the others I know, but not super-high. My friend has quite a few more (I'm guessing about 10 as well - 2/4 family, wife, and at least 4 friends that I know of).

    I agree that INTJs dislike uncertainty/chaos (though I'm not so sure about 'emotions are pure uncertainty for us') and I agree that we start out emotionally naive, but when we put our minds to it I believe we can, as Usehername once put it so beautifully, pwn the 'human' system.
    Fair enough. A lot probably depends on the degree of emotional experience (specifics) rather than maturity though. For example, from what I know of your past, you have a very hard line between those you will have and won't have in your life. I'm similar, but not quite as... willing to act on it. Non would be on the opposite side (culturally conditioned responsibility and community). I imagine that Usehername has a more religious backing (and thus different conditioning) than either... so that probably plays a part in how the empathy is doled out.

    I think anyone can learn it, yes. But it also, to me, is akin to saying that anyone can learn to be extroverted. It's a half-truth. If you test solidly without empathy etc, chances are you are mostly set in that way - and will struggle to change it. Can you learn how to express it? I'm sure almost anyone can. It's just a combination of learning to cope and natural ability.


    I'd be curious what culture you come from Night.

    Believe it or not, but we can give emotional support. Incidentally (since this is not intended to back the claim I just made) I just asked my (ENFP) SO about this, and he said that sometimes when he presents a problem I go into emotional support mode by default when he actually really wants me to get analytical.
    That's funny I have to ask - over compensating, perhaps?

    I also err in the expected direction. Striking the balance between analytical mode and empathetic mode (or more accurately, reading people when they are ambiguous/unclear so as to know what they want from me) is hard for me - that's a limitation.
    Ok, that's much more fair than what I said. The problem I saw was is that there is no middle ground. It's either all analytical or all empathy, or very close to... and it seems to be a real problem to switch between them (or hell, choose the right one at all).

    And of course, if you aren't well practised in empathy/emotions, one would always pick the analytical.

    A third limitation is that my empathy is, uh, limited, and I don't fake it convincingly.
    Yup, I'll agree with that This and the above puts it better than I did.

    (I won't claim to have pwned myself yet, but I know an INTJ who has pwned himself. If you come to Europe I'll introduce you. )
    Next year probably, maybe the year after... but that might be more "Southern Europe" I got a wedding to worry about this year (hence, no time, no money )

    :eek: 100 bucks says he moves from the ranch within a year of moving to it (or at least ditches the chickens).
    Probably not entirely... since he just finished his financial accounting thingy up. So he'll probably head back to work, but his wife works farther out in the wilderness doing nature stuff, so he'll probably be "on the ranch" or thinking about it for a while.

    He was serious about the ranch but I can't see him settling down yet. This was just a retreat for him, I think...

  9. #39
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Re: empathy.

    I think it's just a plain (mis)understanding of the definition. I have tons of empathy. (see dictionary.com: "the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.")

    Just because there's only a select group of people/circumstances that my heart hurts for (in the traditional understanding of the term), doesn't mean I'm not empathetic. I simply feel the urge to do something about it instead of hurt with people more often. Sometimes it's an irrational, overwhelming urge to solve someone's problem.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #40
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'd be curious what culture you come from Night.
    How so? Geographically? Socio-politically?

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