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  1. #101
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Increase awareness as to the calculation formulas inherent within Type evaluation.
    Which would lead to what?

    The only reason I ask is because I was always under the impression that typology was intended to be an individual base of information. Figuring the odds of occurrence seem trivial at best. I'm not against the idea, I just don't see it would prove very useful.

    Clarification: As I see it, finding the percentages can only be put to application in predicting types of children. Even with these figures, it can only be a prediction, and would be based on the history - not on the parent's genes and upraising, both of which have proven themselves to be crucial to the development (or otherwise) of human psychology.

    Also, even if we were able to calculate such things, it would be a spin of the wheel, since there are so many types, many of which would have the same chance of probability for the same birth.

    Perhaps I've overlooked something?
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-20-2007 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #102
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Which would lead to what?

    The only reason I ask is because I was always under the impression that typology was intended to be an individual base of information. Figuring the odds of occurrence seem trivial at best. I'm not against the idea, I just don't see it would prove very useful.
    Your critique is well taken.

    When you say, "individual base of information", I am concluding that you mean that trait expression exists outside the context of Type placement. (I may have misinterpreted your point)

    In terms of examining frequency, I think the idea might interest some. In terms of triviality, it has the same (fundamental) level of inefficacy as the exploration of any data matrix behind a description that seeks to classify broad populations on the basis of Gaussian distribution systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Clarification: As I see it, finding the percentages can only be put to application in predicting types of children. Even with these figures, it can only be a prediction, and would be based on the history - not on the parent's genes and upraising, both of which have proven themselves to be crucial to the development (or otherwise) of human psychology.
    I agree that these elements are important to the overall order of the individual.

    Dividing ourselves from the cultivating aspects that give rise to personality, statistical distribution is a mathematical expression of allocation within a set of data.

    It could be compared to the impact patterns a handful of rocks make when you toss them into water. Instead of focusing on the elements that compose the rocks (or the process by which they find themselves in your palm), we concentrate on their distribution as they interact with the water.

    It does not fundamentally deal with the governing associations that mold x; rather, it conveys frequency of x within a system.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-20-2007 at 07:48 AM.

  3. #103
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Your critique is well taken.

    When you say, "individual base of information", I am concluding that you mean that trait expression exists outside the context of Type placement. (I may have misinterpreted your point)


    In terms of examining frequency, I think the idea might interest some. In terms of triviality, it has the same (fundamental) level of inefficacy as the exploration of any data matrix behind a description that seeks to classify broad populations on the basis of Gaussian distribution systems.
    What I meant was, not being extremely different from the above, was that it's meant as a crutch - not for global grouping. That is to say, it only has effect as a means of understanding the self. It makes extremely complex thought processes slightly more concrete, by assigning a pair of letters to each process. Of course it's generalizing and there seems to be some overlap, but MBTI is not what's on trial here. The issue I'm having here is the same I had with Toonia over on INTPc where I said "If you're going to Te something, have a reason" as after all, that's what Te is all about right? Sort of a joke. Not a very good one.

    The point I'm approaching is, MBTI is decidedly personal, and seems to be too broad (at least to me) and permissive of contrasting behavior (this is a bit of an exaggeration, I admit) fitting under the same function name to put assessment of likelihood of use and preference of those functions to use.

    Am I entirely off base? Interesting it may well be, but it, like the other matrices you mention can (at least in this era) only be put to work for use in marketing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I agree that these elements are important to the overall order of the individual.

    Dividing ourselves from the cultivating aspects that give rise to personality, statistical distribution is a mathematical expression of allocation within a set of data.

    It could be compared to the impact patterns a handful of rocks make when you toss them into water. Instead of focusing on the elements that compose the rocks (or the process by which they find themselves in your palm), we concentrate on their distribution as they interact with the water.

    It does not fundamentally deal with the governing associations that mold x; rather, it conveys frequency of x within a system.
    Fair enough, but if we actually examine the analogy, we notice that if anyone is "throwing rocks" into a stream, you, Night and I are the rocks being thrown. By who, is irrelevant - we could say big business, the government, god, whoever. It doesn't matter.

    I fear this is where the INTJ and the ENTP go their separate ways. For the ENTP, the divergent thinking one, knowing types, or styles, or patterns; miniscule and many, is the favorable path. It allows for plenty of ideas and predictions to come rushing in, all of which are equally exploitable. The INTJ on the other hand likes to take in extremely vast amounts of data. The essay I'm writing for this thread goes more into detail about the following: INTJs are extremely adept at predicting events with what looks like very little information. Knowing a few percentages, indeed appears, at least to me, as very little information. I don't doubt there is some grand scheme being calculated even as we speak.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-20-2007 at 07:50 AM. Reason: merged posts

  4. #104
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    I swear I will never understand NTs o_O All I can read is sarcasm (really, it's not worth stickying... If it ever comes up again, which it hasn't in years, one can link here!)

  5. #105
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Fair enough, but if we actually examine the analogy, we notice that if anyone is "throwing rocks" into a stream, you, Night and I are the rocks being thrown. By who, is irrelevant - we could say big business, the government, god, whoever. It doesn't matter.

    I fear this is where the INTJ and the ENTP go their separate ways. For the ENTP, the divergent thinking one, knowing types, or styles, or patterns; miniscule and many, is the favorable path. It allows for plenty of ideas and predictions to come rushing in, all of which are equally exploitable. The INTJ on the other hand likes to take in extremely vast amounts of data. The essay I'm writing for this thread goes more into detail about the following: INTJs are extremely adept at predicting events with what looks like very little information. Knowing a few percentages, indeed appears, at least to me, as very little information. I don't doubt there is some grand scheme being calculated even as we speak.

    You continue to make good points.

    I enjoy your thought process - the ENTP seems powerfully adept at appreciating the connective tissue between ideas.

    Let us know how your paper comes - I'd like to hear more of your ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I swear I will never understand NTs o_O All I can read is sarcasm (really, it's not worth stickying... If it ever comes up again, which it hasn't in years, one can link here!)
    Sarcasm? No.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-20-2007 at 07:51 AM. Reason: merged posts

  6. #106
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    You continue to make good points.

    I enjoy your thought process - the ENTP seems powerfully adept at appreciating the connective tissue between ideas.

    Let us know how your paper comes - I'd like to hear more of your ideas.
    I'm writing it specifically for this thread. I didn't answer the questions to asked in the beginning but rather corrected a few people throughout the thread. I also ignored the first post on INTPc but decided belatedly that I wanted to answer it. My closer INTJ friend inspired both the black hole analogy and most of what I've written so far.

  7. #107
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    My closer INTJ friend inspired both the black hole analogy and most of what I've written so far.
    How would you compare him to other INTJs you've encountered?

  8. #108
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How would you compare him to other INTJs you've encountered?
    Well, I only know 3 to be indubitably INTJ. The one I know best is really more innovative than anyone I've ever met. He and I are discussing making a few films. What he's described to me is leading up to what seems to be literally a full on overhaul of the industry as we know it. I realize that kind of conquest sounds reminiscent of an ENTJ, but hear me out. He has made no action toward realizing it. I'm beginning to wonder if he actually plans to implement and would rather just continue brooding; scheming until doomsday before he'll make his move.

    The same seems to be taking place in his romantic life. He's yet to become involved with a woman, as he continues waiting until he finds a prey which he regards as worthy and formidable, which he can acquire the undying affection of in a single strategic pounce.

    What I notice about the INTJs is that they will not make a single move until they're absolutely certain that their plan is fool proof. The less expressed on any given dichotomy lessens this trait, but the one I spoke of above is fairly strongly expressed on all four.

    Now, I'll match him up against my brother, whom I know second best.

    I'll say first that he's not nearly as reserved as the one I just finished describing. Still an extreme introvert (INTJs seem to be curiously more kept to themselves than any other type, at least in my experience). This one is a lot more of a sensor than the previous as well, though I can tell that he's more Se than Si. This creates often, the appearance of an ISTP, however when you look at his schoolwork you begin to realize almost immediately with extremely high scores in advanced mathematics courses that he is not an ISTP. He also is significantly more organized than any P, especially not the imposingly spread out ISTP.

    Enough about that. I know my brother best as he shows himself in a game, many of you may know, called "DotA"

    It's a strategy game (of course) wherein the player chooses a "hero" and does battle with the other heros while avoiding enemy "creeps" which are smaller characters who can't carry items and have less health and do less damage. Their function is to destroy the enemy towers, when aided by a hero. The towers' destruction leads the the crown jewel, the frozen throne which has to be destroyed to achieve victory. Killing creeps and heros is rewarded with extra gold, which can be spent to build a stronger arsenal of weaponry. This will of course make getting other kills much easier.

    I outline the objective and means of the game so I can do the same of my brother's strategy. It's a very capitalist game, and I absolutely suck at it. My brother however is a genius. He's figured out that the key to winning is a good start, as is the case with any capitalist system. Of course he'll never tell anyone (not even his own dear brother) how to win, as it might lower his chances for success. In any event, his usual tactic is to dwindle another hero's health down to where he can strike with a single spell and end their life, whence they must wait for reincarnation and walk back into the battle. This causes not only an increase in his revenue, but a decrease in his enemy's and a loss of experience points during the away time.

    Suffice to say he's mastered the semantics of the game to where he can experiment with whatever item build he chooses and can always make it work. It seems, he's especially good at predicting the other character's item builds, and is known how to react accordingly. This is of course only an undercurrent to his larger schemes which he shares with, I presume no one.

    Going back to the first INTJ I mention, I'd like to discuss one of his interests. Actually, I wouldn't like to discuss the interest rather, I'm more interested to discuss WHY he's interested in it, since I actually have very little knowledge in the field.

    He's become immensely engrossed in fighting: martial arts. He says it's all about being able to defend himself when he needs to, but sometimes (rarely - he has trouble opening up and sharing much, though is able to express himself to me) discusses the philosophy of fighting. He doesn't say so explicitly, but one gets the sense that he feels some spirituality, (much like bruce lee's philosophy of fighting) in the art. More often, we discuss strategies. He doesn't describe in detail any maneuvers but rather emphasizes that the attacks he's learning could be used in conjunction and with the right force and timing he could literally cripple any opponent. Even one twice his size.

    This is I think thanks to Te being more openly expressed than Ni. The philosophy seems highly obscure and poorly developed, though it could just be that with weak linguistic skills (never been an interest of his) he has difficulty conveying the points and feelings he gets. Especially since it comes from deeply internalized intuition, where all is reduced to clumps of information which take the form of symbols. These things are very difficult to express, due to the great mass of each concept created by intuition. This is why, I think, the perception of the NJ variety is kept within. Speaking of a single concept is simply too much, and often there aren't words to succinctly define what is to be conveyed. So inward goes the information and is instead put forth via thinking, at least in NTJs.

    He's much more interested in art than anyone I've ever met. Though interest is probably not a good word to describe what art is for him. He's expressed on several occasions incredibly profound realization from observing artistic pieces and compositions.

    I can only speculate as to what it all means to him and what kind of spiritual journeys he's been through. If anyone has ever seen "Pirates of Silicon Valley" think about Steve Jobs. My kid I'm talking about is like an extremely reserved version of Steve, though his visions are no less grandiose and open to ingenuity and innovation.

    How's that Night?

    Addition: The closer of my INTJ friends seems to have a raging emotional side. Very little energy is devoted to it, but what's there appears to be scrutiny of self. The same mercurial Fi that IxFPs often sadden themselves with (over whatever things - lost makeup in the sensing or genocide in the intuiting one) seems to be active in my calculating friend. It may have taken years for him to open that up to me, but I've managed to record a few shimmers of the highly held within function.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-20-2007 at 07:52 AM. Reason: merged posts

  9. #109
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Thank you very, very much Nocapszy.

    Your observations are highly informative.

  10. #110
    Member ps646566's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It actually wasn't the opening, I had very polite introduction to it.

    But for you to say that you can't be unrealistic?
    I think you need a chip knocked of your shoulder.
    Sorry, you've lost me with that one. What does unwillingness to be unrealistic have to do with having a chip on one's shoulder ?
    INTJ bordering on ISTJ

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