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  1. #91

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    To add to pt's thought....

    People generally know a lot of people. Think about your classmates, relatives, co-worker, x's, etc. that you have known in your life. In fact, how many people do you interact with on a regular basis? I personally have weekly interactions with well over 50 people right now.

    The chance of having a particuar person you know be an INTJ is represented by a Bernoulli distribution which then means (assumng independence) that probability of k out of n people you know being a random variable is represented by a a Binomial Random Variable.


    You would then just sum up k*prob(k out of n being INTJ) for all k from 0 to n to get the expected number of INTJs you know. Incidently, the result of that is the very common sense answer of n*p, where n is the number of people you know and p the probability of a particular person being an INTJ.

    The probability of knowing exactly k INTJs out of n people is then n_Choose_k*p^k*(1-p)^(n-k).

    If you want to know the probability of knowing 1 or more INTJs, then you simply add up prob(k out of n being INTJ) for all k from 1 to n. Or, more easily, subtracting prob(0 out of n being INTJ) from 1.

    Let's say you know a 50 people and that the probability of a particular person you know being INTJ is 0.03, and that the probability of any one person you know, being INTJ is independent of any of the others being INTJs.

    Then you would expect to know 1.5 INTJs on average. Right now I know 3 people who I suspect could be INTJs, one I am fairly certain is an ISTJ instead.

    Also, the probability of knowing at least 1 INTJ is 1-prob(knowing 0 INTJs), which is then 1-(0.7)^50=approx. 1-1.8e-8, which almost nearly 1. So the real rarity would be to find someone who knew 50 people but didn't know an INTJ.

    If you are in an NT skewed environment, like college or in an INTJ skewed environent like IT, then you are likely to know more.

    When I think about peope you've known in the past, that number will go up. When I think about my high-school Math team, and the local chess club, the number could be high indeed.

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  2. #92
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Congratulations, you have no clue, just like the vast majority here.
    ...

    or...

    you have no clue. I'm really not trying to justify it. Especially not to you now. I wouldn't have even spoken up except that you were wrong. I wouldn't have made that sentence except that you made it personal.

    I look forward to many arguments with you in the future, as I'm sure they're to ensue because of such a silly disagreement. As if you would really know who I spend my time with. For the record, I seek out intuitives, and avoid sensors, because they usually have no idea what I'm talking about. Actually, IS's are ok, because they don't tell me to shut up and stop talking about random shit.

    Anyway, I think INs put a little bit too much faith in your supposed rarity. Granted, they're far less common than any other subtype, but that still doesn't make them so infrequent that I might have come across a few of them in my life.

    Huh... I guess I am trying to justify it.

  3. #93
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Also, the probability of knowing at least 1 INTJ is 1-prob(knowing 0 INTJs), which is then 1-(0.7)^50=approx. 1-1.8e-8, which almost nearly 1. So the real rarity would be to find someone who knew 50 people but didn't know an INTJ.
    Hmm, why 1-(0.7)^50 ? I didn't follow that part (I believe it should be 1-(0.97)^50... or roughly around 80% of people will know an INTJ.

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, why 1-(0.7)^50 ? I didn't follow that part (I believe it should be 1-(0.97)^50... or roughly around 80% of people will know an INTJ.
    Yup. That should teach me to do math in public.

    But still. More people would know an INTJ than not.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #95
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Judging from the last few posts, I don't know whether to rate this thread 1 star or 5. :confused:

    I know four INTJs, one of them I met last week. INTJs tend to give off the INJ vibey-thing that if you know what you're looking for it's not difficult to detect. It's more in how they talk about things than behavior. The ones I know aren't socially handicapped and are fun to be around.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  6. #96
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    All INTJs I've met were men. I don't think I've known a single INTJ woman which is kind of odd.

    If they hadn't taken the long version MBTI test at work, I would've never guessed they all had the same personality.

    However, one INTJ that stands out in my mind was very cheap and had an odd tendency to impose on all his friends and then would brag about it. Another INTJ, I think was the opposite- very generous with his time and well-travelled, extremely thoughtful and considerate of the people around him. They all even looked very different- but most liked to plan ahead and always had a constant flurry of activity, and things they liked to do in their spare time. The generous INTJ (who also happened to be the best co-worker) would go just about crazy if he had to sit home for two hours. He always liked being on the go. Since he got a transfer to Chicago, I lost my best buddy!

  7. #97
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yup. That should teach me to do math in public.

    But still. More people would know an INTJ than not.
    Just double checking. Either way, the point remains the same, agreed.

    You'd actually be pretty close if everyone was a science majoring university, for example (somewhere close to 20%)... so there are huge swings depending on locality.

    And not to go all non-PC, but there is a "class" issue here as well (INTJs are very much over represented at the higher end of jobs, etc). I'd hazard a guess that an upper-management INTJ is more likely to know of another INTJ more than just one INFJ or INFP. Likewise, anyone working in average corporate america even at a middle-manager level is vastly more likely to know an INTJ (starts at 10% and goes up to 16%, only slightly less than sciences in Uni).

    I accounted for the rough approximation given the 2.3 population size, but realistically about 75% to 90% of anyone who is working or going to school should know an INTJ, even at the 2nd/3rd gen + work + friends level.

  8. #98
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, the way I see it, the rough way of seeing the numbers would be (I make no statement to the accuracy of this, I'm just typing it out as I think of it).

    total people in family tree = 1st gen + 2nd gen + 3rd gen (...)

    Where 1st gen = 1, x gen = 2.3^x

    With (1st to last-1) * 2.

    With probability being 3% of the population being INTJ, with 0.97^(number of people in tree) not knowing of an INTJ.

    Probability of knowing an INTJ in your family;

    1st gen = 2 = 6%
    2nd gen = 2+2.3 = 4.3 = 12%
    3rd gen = 2+2.3*2+2.3^2 = 11.89 = 30%
    4th gen = 2+2.3*2+2.3^2*2+2.3^3= 29.347 = 59%

    Since I didn't build this in excel for quick calcs, I won't work out adding a circle of friends, work and so forth. I did look up birth statistics and we are actually below 2.3, although with the timeframe we are talking about, it's probably fairly safe - it has gone up and down over 40-80 years! And of course, if you are seeing anyone, it is far more likely to know someone as a result of the two families... Anyone who goes to university has a much higher chance of knowing an INTJ as well... and if you are younger...

    I'd give myself a 95% chance odd (well, higher, but around there) of not knowing an INTJ with a headcount of my family, friends and department at work - I know two, so nothing errant there. Taking on an extra 4-5 friends, maybe a couple of their SOs, maybe a few people at work - well, I'd say the majority of the population will know an INTJ (or be one themselves).

    Thank you for taking the time to write this up.

    You take into account probability on the basis of general statistical enumeration (whereas one has a fundamentally-equal chance of meeting x as he does y) and develop this premise into social and genetic contexts with institutional variability as the spinal column.

    I like this.

    I would actually suggest this general principle be converted into a sticky. I'm not sure as to administrative process (perhaps a model already exists?), but I think this conversion model is an important piece of documentation for everyone to consider.

    I think it would be valuable to produce a general template for each MBTI. Not necessarily to elevate, but to articulate encounter rate into a scale that aptly captures frequency and distribution probability.

    Does anyone else agree/disagree?

  9. #99
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to write this up.

    You take into account probability on the basis of general statistical enumeration (whereas one has a fundamentally-equal chance of meeting x as he does y) and develop this premise into social and genetic contexts with institutional variability as the spinal column.

    I like this.

    I would actually suggest this general principle be converted into a sticky. I'm not sure as to administrative process (perhaps a model already exists?), but I think this conversion model is an important piece of documentation for everyone to consider.

    I think it would be valuable to produce a general template for each MBTI. Not necessarily to elevate, but to articulate encounter rate into a scale that aptly captures frequency and distribution probability.

    Does anyone else agree/disagree?
    What purpose would such a collection of data serve?

  10. #100
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    What purpose would such a collection of data serve?
    Increase awareness as to the calculation formulas inherent within Type evaluation.

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