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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Default INTP's: the value of turning Ti into Te?

    I've talked about this in another thread at some point, but I wanted to get opinions on this. I have noticed that when I turn my Ti "inside out" and just let my thoughts fly so to speak, it can be very effective.

    As an example, think about a situation where you've got an ESTJ riding you and picking apart everything you do. He's quick on his toes with his comments, has a quick, common-sense comeback to dispute everything you say. Basically, he's getting the best of you in the verbal back-and-forth and, in turn, he's establishing (in his mind and in others who are listening) that he can out-think you and he has better answers/solutions than you do. These situations aren't everything in life, but they are a part of reality - they do happen, especially in the workplace or in areas of business.

    I've noticed that I get frustrated with Ti in these situations because, although I have a very logical answer in my head, I can't always articulate it as quickly as the ESTJ/ENTJ. So, it seems to him and others that he's out-thinking me. But, there comes a breaking point where the frustration builds up and I just let the "filter" go out the window. My thoughts start to fly freely right back at him and there is a good and bad side to this.

    The good side is that it seems to me that he respects me more. He sees that I'm not a push-over, that I'm willing to punch back with words when necessary, and that, in fact, I can very easily keep up with his thought process. In fact, he may even find that I'm one step ahead of him at times. When I'm able to do this, I find that I'm respected more. I still may be seen as somewhat eccentric and some of the things I say might be a little jumbled, but this Te that I use is blunt, bold, and doesn't hold back. When an ESTJ is all over my case and isn't letting up, I'll sometimes go into this mode and it really shocks them sometimes. It's almost like he's an aggressive tiger who walks up to a snake and thinks he's going to have his way with the snake (because he has his way with every other animal) and the snake stays quiet, stays quiet, doesn't have a lot of smart things to say, but then just strikes with a sharp Ti comment and the tiger doesn't really know what to do. He takes a step back and then just figures, "Hmmm, that didnt' really work. I'll give it a try tomorrow." It still sees the snake as a bit strange, but there's some respect there now.

    The bad side of this is that when I turn my Ti into Te it can be very "biting". It can come off extremely harsh, to the point to where people look at you like "Whoa...what the heck did he eat for breakfast this morning?" It can offend, it can burn bridges, it can cause people to say, "I don't see that person as someone I'd want to be friends with" (although there is still some level of respect because they know that you don't take any crap off people).

    It's almost like I'm willing to tolerate a lot from ESTJ/ENTJ types. ENTJ types I relate to more (probably because of the shared "N"), so I'm mainly thinking of ESTJ's (and some other types when it's necessary to be blunt). But, I can tolerate them giving me a hard time/riding me/criticizing my every move for some time, and then it's just like a switch goes on inside that says, "OK buddy, if you're going to play this game with me, I'm going to give it to you straight and you're probably not going to like it very much." Basically, I'm going to open a can of Ti on you. It's rare in life that I need to, but I know it's in my arsenal. When Ti is serious, backed into a corner, or otherwise very frustrated/angry, it doesn't play games. It gets very serious, it commands respect, and it backs people off.

    Opinions? I was thinking about resolutions for 2010 (I don't really do the resolution thing), but I thought that maybe I need to work on letting my thoughts fly a little more often. Learning to let myself get to that place where I speak my mind more often (surely it can be accessed in other ways besides being angry) - and trying to tame it a little bit so as to not alienate people, but to still command the respect of those I do business with. I don't put a ton of stock in "getting people's respect", but I bring this up for business purposes. In these kinds of settings, you really have to play hardball sometimes or you end up getting walked on.

    Thoughts from INTP's and others who are familiar with us as to whether or not this is a good strategy or not and why you feel that way?

  2. #2
    Member Sunless's Avatar
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    Ive never had issues verbalizing my thoughts, although I do think that it takes me longer than it takes someone with a sharpest tongue. Probably because i have to go inside and then outside with the answer. I just dont like to share my opinions around pushy people like my ENTJ dad.
    I would eat an artichoke down to its heart,
    then feed the heart to him.
    It was enough that he was not you and utterly foreign,
    related to no one. So easy to love.

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunless View Post
    Ive never had issues verbalizing my thoughts, although I do think that it takes me longer than it takes someone with a sharpest tongue. Probably because i have to go inside and then outside with the answer. I just dont like to share my opinions around pushy people like my ENTJ dad.
    You don't like to share your opinions with him, but what about when he really makes you angry or backs you into a corner? Maybe it only applies to INTP's with competitive nature. I'm very competitive and I can tolerate quite a bit, but after a while, I have to flip the switch and let them know that they can't/won't roll right over me like a bulldozer. And just because I'm quiet, doesn't mean that I'm stupid like they sometimes seem to think. Usually, everything they're saying to me, I've already thought about or hashed out in my mind.

  4. #4

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    Supposing you extravert your Thinking function, don't you find it exhausting? And if the ESTJ respects you more for it, won't the ESTJ start to expect you to do it more often? I would think that it's taking you out of your natural mode of operation. Kind of like an introvert who's trying to be an extravert. I mean, I guess it might seem more natural for an INTJ, since Te is their secondary function. But putting functions aside, it's more like a clash between introversion and extraversion, in which the extravert is able to work out the information while talking and such. There are times when I feel excited about a topic and I'll start shooting my mouth, but everything that comes out becomes jumbled and mixed up and unclear. I mix up authors' names, details become lost, and such. I'm sure someone introverted will be able to adapt to that kind of environment, but it might be draining after a while.
    The way I deal with my ESTJ supervisor at work is to just constantly question her. It's a lot easier and natural for me to just question things than think up of firm solutions on the fly, to the same extent that she does.

  5. #5
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    I was always under the impression that Ne would be the INTP "fast response" function, rather than Te.
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    As an example, think about a situation where you've got an ESTJ riding you and picking apart everything you do. ... it seems to him and others that he's out-thinking me. But, there comes a breaking point where the frustration builds up and I just let the "filter" go out the window. My thoughts start to fly freely right back at him...

    ...t he respects me more. He sees that I'm not a push-over, that I'm willing to punch back with words when necessary, and that, in fact, I can very easily keep up with his thought process. In fact, he may even find that I'm one step ahead of him at times. When I'm able to do this, I find that I'm respected more. I still may be seen as somewhat eccentric and some of the things I say might be a little jumbled, but this Te that I use is blunt, bold, and doesn't hold back. When an ESTJ is all over my case and isn't letting up, I'll sometimes go into this mode and it really shocks them sometimes.
    You have discovered how to handle ESTJs, as an INTP. That's exactly my experience too, I just realized I had to "give it back" to them and not worry about explaining the conceptual intricacies -- I need to hit them with the first thing that comes to mind rationally. They don't want the conceptual, fluffy stuff, they want practical logic. So give it to them. I found I got a lot of respect out of ESTJs once I stopped holding back and just faced up to them. Even if you did say some "goofy" stuff or things you felt weren't quite right or consistent, they will start to respect you and see something there of substance to them.

    When Ti is serious, backed into a corner, or otherwise very frustrated/angry, it doesn't play games. It gets very serious, it commands respect, and it backs people off.
    That's exactly right.

    Ti is ruthless IF you get into a situation where you can't flex anymore. Normally Se or Ne is in charge of mediating the situation, but if Ti has to take over, it's suddenly sharp, swift blows to the jugular. The threat has already been analyzed and dissected, and we know exactly what blow to strike to end the threat immediately, and if we have to use it, then we do... no apologies.

    I thought that maybe I need to work on letting my thoughts fly a little more often. Learning to let myself get to that place where I speak my mind more often (surely it can be accessed in other ways besides being angry) - and trying to tame it a little bit so as to not alienate people, but to still command the respect of those I do business with. I don't put a ton of stock in "getting people's respect", but I bring this up for business purposes. In these kinds of settings, you really have to play hardball sometimes or you end up getting walked on.
    I think it's a good goal. I actually am actively working on that as well... basically to stop holding back and overanalyzing and to simply engage with who I am. People have no idea who we are or what we can handle until we let them see it... so just trust your strength and competence and get in there; each time you do it, you will get better, gain experience, AND gain more confidence in your abilities. it's a win-win.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Pumpernickel
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    Why do you think of it as Ti "turning" into Te, rather than just you using Te?

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veins View Post
    Supposing you extravert your Thinking function, don't you find it exhausting? And if the ESTJ respects you more for it, won't the ESTJ start to expect you to do it more often? I would think that it's taking you out of your natural mode of operation. Kind of like an introvert who's trying to be an extravert. I mean, I guess it might seem more natural for an INTJ, since Te is their secondary function. But putting functions aside, it's more like a clash between introversion and extraversion, in which the extravert is able to work out the information while talking and such. There are times when I feel excited about a topic and I'll start shooting my mouth, but everything that comes out becomes jumbled and mixed up and unclear. I mix up authors' names, details become lost, and such. I'm sure someone introverted will be able to adapt to that kind of environment, but it might be draining after a while.
    Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's not natural and I wouldn't want to sustain it over long periods of time, but I'm just saying maybe I should tap into it more often. Not as my standard way of operating, but more often.

    The way I deal with my ESTJ supervisor at work is to just constantly question her. It's a lot easier and natural for me to just question things than think up of firm solutions on the fly, to the same extent that she does.
    One ESTJ boss (small business owner) that I worked for would respond to anyone "questioning him" with things like, "Stop questioning every freakin' thing I say. Just shut up and do what I've told you or you can take a hike."

    I know that's extreme, but other ESTJ's I know have more or less said things like this too (a little more tame, but the same effect). It's basically "their way or the highway".

    One (of many) example of what I'm talking about would be where a trend starts to develop where you start working at 6am (and you've been working hard since that time because you are under a time crunch). An ESTJ who is "over you" for the time being, walks in to the workplace at 8am (2 hours later) and immediately (before setting his stuff down or saying a word to anyone) goes right up to you and says "That's not the most efficient way to do that" and keeps walking past you. Sets his stuff down and comes back to explain to you why it's not efficient.

    The whole time my Ti is going, "I already know that's not the most efficient way to do it and it's not normally the way that I do it, but because of circumstance A, B, and C, that occurred 2 hours ago while you were still in bed sleeping, I have no choice to do it this way today. This is the next best option for the time being. Did you ever stop to consider that, Einstein? Think about it. If I do it your way, then this could go wrong or that could go wrong. Then you'd have a fit because I didn't do things right. So, I've already thought in advance and came up with the best contingency plan. Get out of your box, go have a cup of coffee, and come back and talk to me when you're ready to do some critical thinking."

    That's what Ti "thinks", but may not say. But, when it does say it (or something close to it), it really has an odd effect. Good, but bad, at the same time.

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    Why do you think of it as Ti "turning" into Te, rather than just you using Te?
    Well, you're right, it is Te. I guess that I "think of it that way" because I know that it usually runs through a filter before it comes out of my mouth. It's been run through the Ti "machine" first. But, yeah, when it comes out without the filter, then it's obviously Te.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's not natural and I wouldn't want to sustain it over long periods of time, but I'm just saying maybe I should tap into it more often. Not as my standard way of operating, but more often.



    One ESTJ boss (small business owner) that I worked for would respond to anyone "questioning him" with things like, "Stop questioning every freakin' thing I say. Just shut up and do what I've told you or you can take a hike."

    I know that's extreme, but other ESTJ's I know have more or less said things like this too (a little more tame, but the same effect). It's basically "their way or the highway".

    One (of many) example of what I'm talking about would be where a trend starts to develop where you start working at 6am (and you've been working hard since that time because you are under a time crunch). An ESTJ who is "over you" for the time being, walks in to the workplace at 8am (2 hours later) and immediately (before setting his stuff down or saying a word to anyone) goes right up to you and says "That's not the most efficient way to do that" and keeps walking past you. Sets his stuff down and comes back to explain to you why it's not efficient.

    The whole time my Ti is going, "I already know that's not the most efficient way to do it and it's not normally the way that I do it, but because of circumstance A, B, and C, that occurred 2 hours ago while you were still in bed sleeping, I have no choice to do it this way today. This is the next best option for the time being. Did you ever stop to consider that, Einstein? Think about it. If I do it your way, then this could go wrong or that could go wrong. Then you'd have a fit because I didn't do things right. So, I've already thought in advance and came up with the best contingency plan. Get out of your box, go have a cup of coffee, and come back and talk to me when you're ready to do some critical thinking."

    That's what Ti "thinks", but may not say. But, when it does say it (or something close to it), it really has an odd effect. Good, but bad, at the same time.
    I've definitely worked under those types - the kinds that want to rule with an iron fist, even if their decisions don't seem to make any sense at all. My tenure at those jobs are short-lived, I usually quit soon after. But I guess that wouldn't be a good idea in this economy right now. The second scenario seems like an N vs. S issue, in that the ESTJ doesn't stop to consider the bigger picture, taking in the possibilities. Have you tried telling the ESTJ what's been happening and why you're doing things the way you've been doing? Although, I guess it probably wouldn't matter if the ESTJ doesn't care about the reasoning, so long as the thing gets done.
    Usually for me in that situation, I'll just let the ESTJ demonstrate an example of the "efficient" way of doing it and if the situation contradicts it, I'll point it out to the ESTJ and suggest the method that I've been doing and maybe the both of us can mix and match and use whatever works. I don't know how developed or mature the people you've been working with are though. I would imagine it's not so easy with the "My Way or The Highway" types.
    It is rather frustrating working under hard-headed people who don't stop to consider anything.
    I guess it depends on whether this is just a job or a career for you, and whether or not you actually enjoy it and have some sort of passion for it. I'm not that competitive nor do I have any sort of investment in my job, other than that it's paying my bills, so if the supervisor refuses to acknowledge any other ways of doing things, I'll just roll with what he or she wants. More work means more overtime for me, after all. Even if it's unnecessary work.

    I do agree though, that it's better to be more assertive. If this is actually a career that I'm immersed in, then my thoughts will be heard more.

    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    Why do you think of it as Ti "turning" into Te, rather than just you using Te?
    I was under the impression that it's both. That it's just the Thinking function but on a scale of introversion and extraversion. So, it is Te but also, Ti "turning" into Te. However unwieldy that Te may be.

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