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  1. #1
    Playnerd Timeless's Avatar
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    Default ENTPs, a little more advice in the relationship department on the 2nd floor, please?

    (Beware, this is long)

    Since my fellow like-minded ENTP's helped me here:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...recession.html

    ...Tremendously in a short period, to which I have an unexpectedly happy job, I'd figure I'd give this a shot:

    Now I usually talk about some of my perspectives in relationships or sexuality 'round here, but this time I want to talk about what's going on with me.

    When I'm not working, I have no trouble meeting a pretty lady down the street or up in the club. I have plenty stories of that. I might get a little nervous, but that doesn't stop me. I actually like it because, the way I see it, it's my body telling me I really like this lady. And the more attractive is the more silly I get, but it's almost like I'm "calmly silly" meaning on the inside, I'll be nervous as fuck, but on the outside, I'll appear calm. I don't resist or fight any feelings I have. I almost always try speak my mind, not bluntly, but honestly.or instance, after a chat, I'll always let a lady know why I'm taking their number; I'm attracted to them and want to see where things go, or something along the lines. I never, ever, leave things up in the air in that ambiguous zone. At this point, sometimes they'll say they're not interested, or have a boyfriend—which is cool—but for the single ladies, the same thing happens:

    It leads to nothing.

    Whenever I meet these women, I see this pattern where I meet them, call them up to chat, and that's all I'll get to. The first time I see them is basically the last time. Now I can objectively say that I don't know what it is, but to throw in my opinion or guess, is that I think they're playing head games. I had to swallow that real-world realization that people are going to be mean just as they are cool; the world isn't perfect, there are manipulators, gold diggers, liars, psychos etc. but I think that is turning my world of dating in to a cloudy day instead of a sunny day if you know what I'm saying. I'm thinking if they weren't truly interested they would have walked away when we first met, or simply declined.

    For example, the last girl i talked to was actually a classmate from high school, real cute and kinda shy, but it seemed like there was more then meets the eye. We talked almost once a week, and every other week I wanted to meet her to hang out (no sex, actual "hanging out" or just "enjoying a walk") and every single time, it didn't happen. This went on for like a month, 'til I just mentally said "Fuck it" and I didn't bother to call again. I felt like I was being stringed along.

    Another lady I had met when I was looking for work last time, damn, besides being gorgeous she was so fucking fun I really liked her and we ended up spending half the day together when we met on the spot there outside of DSW. We were practically like kids, she got my humor, I got hers, we hugged and held each other like lovers already. When the time came to call, we talked once, and after that she never picked up.

    There are more, and more similar stories like that... it's all different but it all leads to a brick wall.

    I'm seriously lost.

    Almost like my search for work (see link above) I have met countless (well over a thousand, and that's no exaggeration) of women, and sure I had sex with a few of them, but to have actual dates (or better yet opportunities to meet and learn from each other) is virtually nil. I have had a few dates, and they were all Asian from Korea, Japan, China etc. Coincidence? I'm Latino, and I don't know. I never went on a date with black chick, white chick, brown chick—but I want to, WTF.

    And for girlfriends, I would say one and a half (long story). My longest relationship was what... like 3-6 months? I had to leave that one because of the manipulation and game-playing. I was 19 at the time, I'm 24 now and haven't had a 1-on-1 stable solid relationship since then.

    I'd love to have a relationship now. Seriously. I don't feel I am clingy; I don't need a girlfriend, but I do want one. I don't even nag or bother my friends. I consider to think of myself like "Hey, I want to try something more then just sex now." attitude. Other then that, I'm not the richest person in the world, nor even the most handsomest (well maybe), and I know deep down that shouldn't matter.

    To those who are curious and if it means anything; usually when I make a friend, I have a friend for life. My best friend is an ESTJ, and my other just as good friends are INTJ, and 2 ENFP's. I don't really have any "acquaintances" around me. I consider most of that phony stuff. I guess you can say I'm an all or nothing person.

    I also gotta say, it's kind of strange. Depending on my mood, I can make friends with somebody in like zero time, and other times, I'd feel uncomfortable or neutral and be most of the time pretty quiet in people's presence; I'm usually in listening mode. However, if I don't like a person at all, I wouldn't even be there.

    I think you can see that I have a low-tolerance for bullshit, and especially fakeness. I value authenticity to the highest degree out there, but is it just me or them when it comes to growing relationships?

    What do you think is going on?



    P.S. I've already gone down the path of playing head games, pick-up artist bullshit, so please none of that silly furry hat top advice.

    P.S.S. I noticed my thoughts are scattered above, and I meant to organize it, but dang, I gotta sleep!

    P.S.S.S. I'd really love to see some ISFP/INFJ point of views here too actually.

    I'd appreciate any input though,

    Thanks.

    Timeless in San Francisco

  2. #2
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    Whenever I meet these women, I see this pattern where I meet them, call them up to chat, and that's all I'll get to. The first time I see them is basically the last time. Now I can objectively say that I don't know what it is, but to throw in my opinion or guess, is that I think they're playing head games. I had to swallow that real-world realization that people are going to be mean just as they are cool; the world isn't perfect, there are manipulators, gold diggers, liars, psychos etc. but I think that is turning my world of dating in to a cloudy day instead of a sunny day if you know what I'm saying. I'm thinking if they weren't truly interested they would have walked away when we first met, or simply declined.

    For example, the last girl i talked to was actually a classmate from high school, real cute and kinda shy, but it seemed like there was more then meets the eye. We talked almost once a week, and every other week I wanted to meet her to hang out (no sex, actual "hanging out" or just "enjoying a walk") and every single time, it didn't happen. This went on for like a month, 'til I just mentally said "Fuck it" and I didn't bother to call again. I felt like I was being stringed along.
    Hmm... Well if you call them and nothing happens, make something happen. When I'm interested in a girl, I go in aggressor mode, you know? Have a plan, have something to work towards. And that plan should be "plan a time to meet them." By the end of the conversation... make plans. That's what I have made myself do; it's been the best thing to do to get with someone quickly that you like IME. I've gone through a good bit of trial and error in meeting people. Calling them just for the hell of it doesn't really seem to cut it... hang out with them or do something with them ASAP.

    I can see where you're confused. You tell them your exact motivations, they accept on those terms, and nothing happens.

    The only holes I can really see in the situation is a seeming lack of action... but if you're already doing that then I'm not sure what to say.

    And for girlfriends, I would say one and a half (long story). My longest relationship was what... like 3-6 months? I had to leave that one because of the manipulation and game-playing. I was 19 at the time, I'm 24 now and haven't had a 1-on-1 stable solid relationship since then.
    Totally relate to this, except it didn't end due to manipulation; but it sure was bullshit like that.

    I'd love to have a relationship now. Seriously.
    I don't feel I am clingy; I don't need a girlfriend, but I do want one. I don't even nag or bother my friends. I consider to think of myself like "Hey, I want to try something more then just sex now." attitude. Other then that, I'm not the richest person in the world, nor even the most handsomest (well maybe), and I know deep down that shouldn't matter.

    To those who are curious and if it means anything; usually when I make a friend, I have a friend for life. My best friend is an ESTJ, and my other just as good friends are INTJ, and 2 ENFP's. I don't really have any "acquaintances" around me. I consider most of that phony stuff. I guess you can say I'm an all or nothing person.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #3
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    When I'm not working, I have no trouble meeting a pretty lady down the street or up in the club. I have plenty stories of that. I might get a little nervous, but that doesn't stop me. I actually like it because, the way I see it, it's my body telling me I really like this lady. And the more attractive is the more silly I get, but it's almost like I'm "calmly silly" meaning on the inside, I'll be nervous as fuck, but on the outside, I'll appear calm. I don't resist or fight any feelings I have. I almost always try speak my mind, not bluntly, but honestly.or instance, after a chat, I'll always let a lady know why I'm taking their number; I'm attracted to them and want to see where things go, or something along the lines. I never, ever, leave things up in the air in that ambiguous zone. At this point, sometimes they'll say they're not interested, or have a boyfriend—which is cool—but for the single ladies, the same thing happens:

    It leads to nothing.
    You're singing my tune.

    Whenever I meet these women, I see this pattern where I meet them, call them up to chat, and that's all I'll get to. The first time I see them is basically the last time. Now I can objectively say that I don't know what it is, but to throw in my opinion or guess, is that I think they're playing head games.
    Have you ever thought you're not looking in the right place? Or that you're trying to hard? (More on this below)

    I had to swallow that real-world realization that people are going to be mean just as they are cool; the world isn't perfect, there are manipulators, gold diggers, liars, psychos etc. but I think that is turning my world of dating in to a cloudy day instead of a sunny day if you know what I'm saying.
    I'm thinking if they weren't truly interested they would have walked away when we first met, or simply declined.
    See, on your list of people that suck, you forgot to add attention whores. I know people that will simply give out their number for the purpose of knowing somebody wants it- to know they have control.

    For example, the last girl i talked to was actually a classmate from high school, real cute and kinda shy, but it seemed like there was more then meets the eye. We talked almost once a week, and every other week I wanted to meet her to hang out (no sex, actual "hanging out" or just "enjoying a walk") and every single time, it didn't happen. This went on for like a month, 'til I just mentally said "Fuck it" and I didn't bother to call again. I felt like I was being stringed along.
    Again, she could just be wanting attention. Or it had come to the point where she had found someone else, but wanted to keep her options open.

    Another lady I had met when I was looking for work last time, damn, besides being gorgeous she was so fucking fun I really liked her and we ended up spending half the day together when we met on the spot there outside of DSW. We were practically like kids, she got my humor, I got hers, we hugged and held each other like lovers already. When the time came to call, we talked once, and after that she never picked up.
    To me this sounds like she had too much fun. This has happened to me; they aren't ready for a relationship or commitment, so when they find something that could yield such a result, they withdraw. Call it fleeing the altar.

    There are more, and more similar stories like that... it's all different but it all leads to a brick wall.
    Don't be a wolf. Be a tank.

    I'm seriously lost.
    So are they; which is probably the issue.

    And for girlfriends, I would say one and a half (long story). My longest relationship was what... like 3-6 months? I had to leave that one because of the manipulation and game-playing. I was 19 at the time, I'm 24 now and haven't had a 1-on-1 stable solid relationship since then.
    This seems to be the death of all NPs: finding a stable relationship.

    I'd love to have a relationship now. Seriously. I don't feel I am clingy; I don't need a girlfriend, but I do want one. I don't even nag or bother my friends. I consider to think of myself like "Hey, I want to try something more then just sex now." attitude. Other then that, I'm not the richest person in the world, nor even the most handsomest (well maybe), and I know deep down that shouldn't matter.
    And for some reason it does; well, at least where you're searching. I don't think you're trying to look in the right places, to be honest. Yeah, you're going to clubs, talking to people at work, but- to be completely honest- the most meaningful relationships (the ones you realize you should have tried harder to keep after it's over) I've been in started in the most unconventional situations. One was an elevator. Another the internet (no joke). Another was a friend of a friend who I ran into five times in one day, and I decided to say, "let's hang out some time." My advice is to stop using your Fe to seek out people and use your Ne to seek out adventure.

    I guess you can say I'm an all or nothing person.
    And their aren't that many people that can accept this off the bat, so you have to play it safe and turn your on/off switch into a fader.

    I think you can see that I have a low-tolerance for bullshit, and especially fakeness. I value authenticity to the highest degree out there, but is it just me or them when it comes to growing relationships?
    I don't think it's either of you, rather the situation in which you act. The world's not that big- you'll run into yourself eventually.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  4. #4
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I'd say - reading between the lines above, and otehr posts I've read you post, that you may let your anxiety come over as beign cock, arrogant womaniser......

    The post above clearly says other things, but your anxiety is causing you to communicate really badly...

    ENTP's find relationships difficult (esp to start with), If you really like the girl, leave with her, tell her you get nervouse when you meet women you like and ask her if she would come out on three dates with you - that way both of you commit to more than one meeting, by the third date you will know if you can relate to her and vice versa.

    For what its worth I'm awful for the first month of a relationship and then very chilled out there after... so you are not alone...

  5. #5
    Senior Member HotpinkHeatwave's Avatar
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    Oh dear. My poor title.

  6. #6
    Playnerd Timeless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Hmm... Well if you call them and nothing happens, make something happen. When I'm interested in a girl, I go in aggressor mode, you know? Have a plan, have something to work towards. And that plan should be "plan a time to meet them." By the end of the conversation... make plans. That's what I have made myself do; it's been the best thing to do to get with someone quickly that you like IME. I've gone through a good bit of trial and error in meeting people. Calling them just for the hell of it doesn't really seem to cut it... hang out with them or do something with them ASAP.

    I can see where you're confused. You tell them your exact motivations, they accept on those terms, and nothing happens.

    The only holes I can really see in the situation is a seeming lack of action... but if you're already doing that then I'm not sure what to say.

    Totally relate to this, except it didn't end due to manipulation; but it sure was bullshit like that.

    That's the thing, I have to draw the line of calling and making plans enough, and calling too much:

    There is that balance of self-respect and respect that I like to have.

    And also:

    Why kick a dead horse?

    In other words, if they aren't answering, or wanting to come out after so many tries, why persist? The last thing I want to do is call a (or go out a) thousand times and day and be apart of somebody's "Fun Club/Play Brother" (The group of guys who are interested in a girl, but she is teasing and playing around with for her own benefit and advantage; to kill time, to complain, when she's bored etc.) There is no real authenticity or intimacy in that, just bullshit games.

    In short, I do make the effort to call and try to set up some plans, but it just does't pan out, or lead to anything.



    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    You're singing my tune.



    Have you ever thought you're not looking in the right place? Or that you're trying to hard? (More on this below)
    Put it this way, I don't really "look" in a specific place or places, but I do allow myself to meet a lady whenever possible besides work. I don't close down any opportunities. I too have met them shopping, elevators, hospital, airports, buses, trains, school, through friends, through family, doing errands—I did do the internet thing way back, but not anymore. And these women are from different cultures, backgrounds, and ages (usually 18-35)

    See, on your list of people that suck, you forgot to add attention whores. I know people that will simply give out their number for the purpose of knowing somebody wants it- to know they have control.

    Again, she could just be wanting attention. Or it had come to the point where she had found someone else, but wanted to keep her options open.
    So, you're probably saying the women I meet are mostly attention whores? If that's the case, then why would I get the same result from the different places and situations I have met them? (Like the above)

    It has to be something else.


    To me this sounds like she had too much fun. This has happened to me; they aren't ready for a relationship or commitment, so when they find something that could yield such a result, they withdraw. Call it fleeing the altar.
    That could be true.

    Don't be a wolf. Be a tank.
    I could interpret it so many ways—what do you mean? I think I understand the wolf part, but what the fuck to mean by the tank? Do I have to blast my way into their hearts?


    So are they; which is probably the issue.
    Now I don't get this.

    This seems to be the death of all NPs: finding a stable relationship.
    While that may be true to a degree or whatever, fuck those statistics, I'll make it happen somehow, someway. This thread is a start.

    And for some reason it does; well, at least where you're searching. I don't think you're trying to look in the right places, to be honest. Yeah, you're going to clubs, talking to people at work, but- to be completely honest- the most meaningful relationships (the ones you realize you should have tried harder to keep after it's over) I've been in started in the most unconventional situations. One was an elevator. Another the internet (no joke). Another was a friend of a friend who I ran into five times in one day, and I decided to say, "let's hang out some time." My advice is to stop using your Fe to seek out people and use your Ne to seek out adventure.
    I honestly don't think they are right or wrong places, just situations to seize or not. I practically stopped my friend's car a while back to jump out and meet these 3 ladies from New York.

    On the other hand, now that you mention this, you made me think about this one absolutely gorgeous African-American/European lady in class when I first started college. All the guys would talk about how gorgeous she is, and would clam up when she was present. She was that beautiful. I was like 20 or so, but here's the thing, I was so fucking shy and nervous at time, that I clammed up too. I called her once and didn't know what to say or do, and never called back because I was scared as fuck. Heck before all of that, when she offered her number, I literally was like this:

    I almost broke down in nervousness when she offered her number at the time.

    That was the past though, just thought I let ya' know for kicks and laughs.

    And their aren't that many people that can accept this off the bat, so you have to play it safe and turn your on/off switch into a fader.
    True, but even if I play it safe, that's going to open the door to being played man. If somebody has a choice to be real from day one or play it safe; what would a guy normally do? What should a guy do?

    Not many people also accept playing it safe, and I don't want to play it safe, I don't want to play it hard either, I want to be real.

    I know the above might make me misunderstood, but put it this way, if two people are real from day one, then they can have all the flirty fun, romance, after the cards are on the deck; soul mates.

    If you're playing cards first before you communicate, have fun or whatever, then what does that say? I don't need or want a security access to my thoughts and feelings (what kind of shit is that?) but it's true most people operate that way; they play safe before they reveal themselves.

    I've heard and seen it way too many times. It's sad. Guys spending weeks, months, even years just to say they like a girl, let their thoughts pour out, or lay their deck of cards on the table… only to have her say in the end, NO. That could be prevented by being real.

    I've also heard stories of guys being totally upfront from the beginning and marrying and having kids. From day one they'll be real and authentic, and from there on they have the most stable and long-lasting relationships, if it's authentic then it never waivers.

    I don't think it's either of you, rather the situation in which you act. The world's not that big- you'll run into yourself eventually.
    Ok, another thing that didn't make sense for me to interpret it and really get the message. Usually I can, but not tonight, maybe it's because I just made around 500 deliveries at work—but that's another story.

    Be more direct yo'



    P.S. I just found out about deadmau5, and I gotta tell you, I'm really digging the music.

    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'd say - reading between the lines above, and otehr posts I've read you post, that you may let your anxiety come over as beign cock, arrogant womaniser......
    That too, I sometimes get called a Player, Playboy, Man-whore, Undercover Stripper, Fabio and all these names. It hasn't happened lately, but it does happen. I know what you're saying though, I can come across as all of that, but in reality that is the furthest thing from the truth.

    I also may have the "look" of the above, but that's just how I like to dress.

    <--- That's me again.

    I mean you see I practically joke and fuck around these boards 90% of the time. Know what i mean, thinkerbell? Like with my friends, I'm sarcastic, to silly, whatever it is, they know where I'm coming from.

    The post above clearly says other things, but your anxiety is causing you to communicate really badly...
    If you could pin-point something I'm missing or not seeing, I'd appreciate it.

    ENTP's find relationships difficult (esp to start with), If you really like the girl, leave with her, tell her you get nervouse when you meet women you like and ask her if she would come out on three dates with you - that way both of you commit to more than one meeting, by the third date you will know if you can relate to her and vice versa.
    As for anxiety and nervousness, I do say stuff like that. I just speak whatever is in my mind at the moment most of the time. If I'm nervous, I'll tell them, but I don't like it to be misinterpreted as a "Aww, poor puppy" sympathy shit, I like to express it in way like "Yeah I'm afraid, but not afraid to say so" type of way. I'm not Rambo, nor a Puppy, I'm just human.

    I feel misunderstood there.

    For what its worth I'm awful for the first month of a relationship and then very chilled out there after... so you are not alone...
    If It's all supposedly true about ENTP's being in relationships that suck, or rocky, I'd better get to it to fix it now then later.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by HotpinkHeatwave View Post
    Oh dear. My poor title.


    You have been ENTP'd.

  7. #7
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think this is an interesting phenomenon - you are able to easily talk to someone you like, you are up front about your intentions, said person agrees to meet up with you, and then sometime between then and the time to meet up, they back out.

    I have a few questions:

    1) What do you think might make people think you are a player? Often women may end up doing further thinking/discussing/describing you to friends. This may be where your trouble is coming in. Describe how you dress and how you would approach a woman on an average day.

    2) While up front is good, sometimes it can seem a little too like you're coming on too strong. This is especially true if you know very little about the person but you are making it clear from the get go that you like them well enough that you'd like to consider dating. I understand not wanting to get friend-zoned, but sometimes if it seems like the stakes are too high for the other person or it's too much pressure, women will instinctively back away, especially after some reflection on your interaction.

    3) If you are asking a lot of women out and word gets out between the various women that you have asked several of them out, that could be causing you trouble as they'll assume you're just a player.

    4) What kind of date/interaction are you inviting people out for? Asking someone out for a drink conveys a different message than coffee, which is different than dinner, which is different than live music, etc. What message are you trying to send?

    5) I'm curious as to why you've had way more sexual partners than girlfriends. Is there any kind of fear of intimacy etc? If so, can you think of any ways that this is being conveyed to the people around you? People can often sense when you are keeping them at emotional arms length.

    Thank you for not falling for the PUA/seduction stuff. Some of those strategies work short term, but not if you actually want an on going relationship with someone. They also generally are sought out by insecure men. Insecurity spells disaster to most relationships because it manifests itself in a wide range of very frustrating and destructive ways. There are some things to be learned from that literature, in my opinion though.

    1) Men and women are different creatures who are motivated by different factors.
    2) Many women enjoy being pursued. I don't think the kind of woman you want should play head games, nor should you, but a little mystery isn't all bad either. I don't advocate the push/pull techniques they offer in that literature, but it is a reminder that people want what is not immediately available to them or which is not being offered too eagerly or aggressively.

    One comment I would make as a woman, is that I am not interested in filling the slot of girlfriend for someone. I want them to want me specifically and to be able to articulate what it is that they like about me (including, but also in addition to how I look). If you are approaching a lot of different women, it may seem that you aren't all that discriminating or that you are a little desperate.

    I'm not sure if any of this resonates, but take it for what it's worth. I wish you the best of luck!

  8. #8
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Put it this way, I don't really "look" in a specific place or places, but I do allow myself to meet a lady whenever possible besides work. I don't close down any opportunities. I too have met them shopping, elevators, hospital, airports, buses, trains, school, through friends, through family, doing errands—I did do the internet thing way back, but not anymore. And these women are from different cultures, backgrounds, and ages (usually 18-35)
    Ah, that clears a lot up. For some reason I had the impression you hadn't tried all the routes you did.

    So, you're probably saying the women I meet are mostly attention whores? If that's the case, then why would I get the same result from the different places and situations I have met them? (Like the above)

    It has to be something else.
    No, I'm just proposing a reason for your situation.

    I could interpret it so many ways—what do you mean? I think I understand the wolf part, but what the fuck to mean by the tank? Do I have to blast my way into their hearts?
    Haha, I was making a bad joke about your brick wall analogy. Don't be the wolf that can't blow it down, be a tank that can blow it up. Take it as a word of encouragement.

    Now I don't get this.
    Well, if you're being honest and you are lost, there's a good chance a lot of people around you feel the same way (lost). With that in mind, I think it's safe to say that people that are totally lost on this stuff are looking for someone who isn't lost or "has it together" in whatever way you don't- it seems there's something they see in you that gives this away; a lot of people (Ni or Se doms) will give the impression they have it all together when they're a complete mess. You on the other hand are probably the opposite; you're well put together on the inside, so you're comfortable with what a J type would call a "messy environment." Not to say you're a slob, rather, as an ENTP friend put it, "You don't like a really clean house- it looks like nobody lives there." You're probably giving off a completely different impression than you think you are.

    While that may be true to a degree or whatever, fuck those statistics, I'll make it happen somehow, someway. This thread is a start.
    Hot damn, that's the spirit!

    I honestly don't think they are right or wrong places, just situations to seize or not. I practically stopped my friend's car a while back to jump out and meet these 3 ladies from New York.
    Yeah, that. To me it seems you're trying too hard to meet people or control a situation that is naturally out of control.

    On the other hand, now that you mention this, you made me think about this one absolutely gorgeous African-American/European lady in class when I first started college. All the guys would talk about how gorgeous she is, and would clam up when she was present.
    This is another thing I want to clear up: why are looks so important?

    True, but even if I play it safe, that's going to open the door to being played man. If somebody has a choice to be real from day one or play it safe; what would a guy normally do? What should a guy do?
    It depends who you are. I don't think there's a universal way for a man to play; I mean, if you've been "real" all these years, then maybe you should use a little ol' Si experience to realize it may not be the right approach for you.

    Not many people also accept playing it safe, and I don't want to play it safe, I don't want to play it hard either, I want to be real.
    But what is being real? Does it involve spilling everything you're thinking at the current moment? To me you sound like you're an advocate of radical honesty. Take it easy. Trusting people with your exact thoughts in the moment takes more time than I think you're giving it. And- yeah- it may sound wrong and raise red flags in your head, but I think it's one of those things that we all have to just deal with.

    I've heard and seen it way too many times. It's sad. Guys spending weeks, months, even years just to say they like a girl, let their thoughts pour out, or lay their deck of cards on the table… only to have her say in the end, NO. That could be prevented by being real.
    And it is sad; but you can't let the fear of this happening make you too abrupt in the situation. I think when you make such brash attempts at making something happen you either appear desperate or inexperienced.

    I've also heard stories of guys being totally upfront from the beginning and marrying and having kids. From day one they'll be real and authentic, and from there on they have the most stable and long-lasting relationships, if it's authentic then it never waivers.
    Again, this depends on the man. Just because something worked for one person doesn't mean it will work 100% for you- I'd say about 80% of the time it does, but when you're focused on people, that chance lowers to around 3%.

    Ok, another thing that didn't make sense for me to interpret it and really get the message. Usually I can, but not tonight, maybe it's because I just made around 500 deliveries at work—but that's another story.
    Sorry- I speak in a language that isn't really English sometimes- maybe it's too much N- Intuinglish.

    Anyway, what I mean to say is that MBTI only categorizes into 16 types, and that even INFJs, being a rather low percent of the population, can be found in abundance in certain areas (this forum for example). There are a lot of people and so far only 16 types; someone's out there.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  9. #9
    Playnerd Timeless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this is an interesting phenomenon - you are able to easily talk to someone you like, you are up front about your intentions, said person agrees to meet up with you, and then sometime between then and the time to meet up, they back out.

    I have a few questions:

    1) What do you think might make people think you are a player? Often women may end up doing further thinking/discussing/describing you to friends. This may be where your trouble is coming in. Describe how you dress and how you would approach a woman on an average day.
    I've been told by both guys and girls that I have that certain "look."

    And look, I dress this way:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-post5629.html

    …Plus me on my avatar.

    I'm usually wearing jeans with blazer or coat. People around my neighborhood are into the whole urban hip-hop, or hipster look. I love the more timeless area of my city though; Golden Gate, Piers, Marina etc., that's all just "eye candy" but I can hang out and have a good time anywhere, even in the hood with them G's ya' dig?

    Some people call it suit-and-dressy, but I call it simple and classy. I like having a little style with a touch of class on it, basically not too conservative nor too out there, I use the best of both worlds. Balance. I'm Timeless duh!

    On an average day though, hmm, the last women I remember talking to I was with a friend in my downtown area enjoying the day off, and I saw this gorgeous lady in dressed in black with her friends. When she left, I stopped her and told her "Wow, you are simply gorgeous, I didn't want to leave here without meeting you." we exchanged names and hit it off there on the corner of our Union Square. A little after the conversation I got the vibe she was a bit distant, I picked that up and said "By the way, I just wanted to let you know I may come across like some player or some shit, but I'm actually a little nervous (I was) here." She was like "Aww, that is sweet." and I said "Nah, you don't need to give poor baby sympathy talk, maybe to your guy friends. I'm just expressing how I feel now. I mean, I'm just human and I like you." She relaxed from that point on. We ended up talking there for a good half-hour. Her smile was literally like a sun, she was bright. Some of the bits and pieces of conversation I remember was some Lao-Tzu philosophical talk, our days, and something I will not forget; when she started to talk about her job; some 6-figure salary, I was intimidated (at the time I was unemployed and missed a semester in college, so I felt so "small") and I told her that "I'm kinda intimidated" and she immediately reassured me not to be, she brought in the subject about how many people judge others and how many people she runs into a day who are narrow-minded and phony. We on and on, talked for a while. Anyways, after all of that, we had to go so we exchanged contacts. We hugged for a real long time then departed our ways.

    By the way, she was from Chicago though and wasn't from the city.

    Other times, women will say they have a boyfriend, or are just not interested—those are ok, but when everything goes well stuff like the above happens. I had other times where I'd be literally dancing in the mall, spanking them for fun, kissing in the elevator, holding hands walking together, them inviting me to bars, and even wanting me to join them for a car ride minutes after meeting them in public. So I don't think I come off "too" strong or repulsive.

    I think I can tell when they back away, and when they do, I do the same. If the interest is not there, then it's all good. Peace!

    I'm just talking about the ones who are interested; or at least seemingly interested.

    Now that I wrote that look back to read it I'm thinking, did I just shoot my own foot? I did call a couple of times, but got no answer each time, just her cell voice mail, and I really don't leave VMs. Despite her talk, I was thinking fucked up thoughts, "Why a girl who is more wealthier then me, probably has more handsome guys then me, has opportunities to travel and have a kick ass life be with someone like me?"

    I'm virtually like poor. I'm not directionless in life, I know where I'm going, what I want, and what I stand for and believe in. But it's like why would anyone choose something less over something more they can have?

    I may have kicked my own ass or saved it. I don't know at this point if it's a good thing or bad thing.

    2) While up front is good, sometimes it can seem a little too like you're coming on too strong. This is especially true if you know very little about the person but you are making it clear from the get go that you like them well enough that you'd like to consider dating. I understand not wanting to get friend-zoned, but sometimes if it seems like the stakes are too high for the other person or it's too much pressure, women will instinctively back away, especially after some reflection on your interaction.
    Well, If I like somebody how else should I express my interest? By talking about the weather, football game or ants on the tree? It's true I don't know almost nothing about them, but how else can I peruse that? The last thing I want to do is bullshit my way in anywhere.

    3) If you are asking a lot of women out and word gets out between the various women that you have asked several of them out, that could be causing you trouble as they'll assume you're just a player.
    I'm 50/50 on that. Yeah, that's true. It's okay for sex, but relationships, it backfires.

    4) What kind of date/interaction are you inviting people out for? Asking someone out for a drink conveys a different message than coffee, which is different than dinner, which is different than live music, etc. What message are you trying to send?
    Since I'm low on cash; what I like to do is go for simple walks that's all, nothing major. I want to show them my world, I would say it's not so much about where I'm at or what I want to do. I don't usually play around with external environments and places, I like to be on-on-one so they can see me for who I am and so I can see them for who they are. The real deal stuff. Sometimes parks, sometimes people-watching, just all low-key. I'd like to get to know a person first before I jump ahead and treat them out to everything else like I do with my friends and family.

    What I'd also like to do, but I'm kind of inhibited of bringing up with them is hanging out at home, besides sex, just to chill. I know that may sound off, but it isn't. There are some days where I just want to chill and relax, watch a movie, or have fun around the house to cook something.

    What message I'm trying to send?

    Simple: I'm attracted to you and want to get to know you better. I want to see if you'll be a good person to have in my life and want to make sure I am too for you.

    5) I'm curious as to why you've had way more sexual partners than girlfriends. Is there any kind of fear of intimacy etc? If so, can you think of any ways that this is being conveyed to the people around you? People can often sense when you are keeping them at emotional arms length.

    Thank you for not falling for the PUA/seduction stuff. Some of those strategies work short term, but not if you actually want an on going relationship with someone. They also generally are sought out by insecure men. Insecurity spells disaster to most relationships because it manifests itself in a wide range of very frustrating and destructive ways. There are some things to be learned from that literature, in my opinion though.
    Well obviously not too long ago I wanted to have nothing but some sexual experiences, and I did get it when I wanted to. I guess it was easier because there was hardly any emotional commitment going on; not being emotionally naked.

    As for fear of intimacy, yeah there is, no doubt about it. I just been around so many failed or fucked up marriages and relationships that I don't want to go from A to Z knowing the outcome; however, I do believe deep down I can use this information for "our" (me and my future lady) advantage and have a fulfilling relationship.

    I'm pretty sure they can sense it too.

    The only thing that come to my mind is not wanting to be taken for a ride, being played, or fucked over and waste time. I guess this is why it was easier to have sexual experiences because there was no way to get played or fucked over. When we both wanted it; It was just about the sex. When you enter that relationship zone, there are more games out there then the Wii. It's like looking into a battlefield from a balcony view… why go down and join in?

    Now sure I can go down there in my armor by being honest and not taking any bullshit from anyone, but it's still a battlefield out there.

    That's the sad part. And I know that's a badass analogy to use, but that's the way I think of it—and I don't want to. My idea of love and how I want it to be can be summed up in this picture:


    Bicycle, city, looking good, enjoying happiness in the smallest of things, and not giving a fuck of what other people think. Screw the "right" way, let's do it our way. Fuck a car and pretentious dinners.

    ...That stuff.

    Not this:



    Like I said, it's like I know what's going to happen already. Love is a battlefield, and that's sad. I know that's a messed up perspective to have, but that's how I see it now. I'm just on that balcony observing it.

    1) Men and women are different creatures who are motivated by different factors.
    True we are different, no better or worse. It's sad when people operate in the better-than, less-than mentality.

    2) Many women enjoy being pursued. I don't think the kind of woman you want should play head games, nor should you, but a little mystery isn't all bad either. I don't advocate the push/pull techniques they offer in that literature, but it is a reminder that people want what is not immediately available to them or which is not being offered too eagerly or aggressively.
    10-4.

    One comment I would make as a woman, is that I am not interested in filling the slot of girlfriend for someone. I want them to want me specifically and to be able to articulate what it is that they like about me (including, but also in addition to how I look). If you are approaching a lot of different women, it may seem that you aren't all that discriminating or that you are a little desperate.
    I know what you're saying. That's where I'm coming from anyway.

    And It's the same way for me, I want them to want me, Christian, not that "guy."

    I'm not sure if any of this resonates, but take it for what it's worth. I wish you the best of luck!
    Good stuff yo.



    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Ah, that clears a lot up. For some reason I had the impression you hadn't tried all the routes you did.



    No, I'm just proposing a reason for your situation.



    Haha, I was making a bad joke about your brick wall analogy. Don't be the wolf that can't blow it down, be a tank that can blow it up. Take it as a word of encouragement.
    Man… if a tank can blow up a wall, what do you mean by that? If you're saying don't give up or let a wall stop me, oh shit, you have no idea.

    The last thing in the world i'd do is go in the bleachers or give up.

    Hell no to the 9th power.

    My attitude towards that is that saying, "Winners never quit, and quitters never win."

    This is thread blasting that wall…



    Well, if you're being honest and you are lost, there's a good chance a lot of people around you feel the same way (lost). With that in mind, I think it's safe to say that people that are totally lost on this stuff are looking for someone who isn't lost or "has it together" in whatever way you don't- it seems there's something they see in you that gives this away; a lot of people (Ni or Se doms) will give the impression they have it all together when they're a complete mess. You on the other hand are probably the opposite; you're well put together on the inside, so you're comfortable with what a J type would call a "messy environment." Not to say you're a slob, rather, as an ENTP friend put it, "You don't like a really clean house- it looks like nobody lives there." You're probably giving off a completely different impression than you think you are.
    Man, this is exactly how I feel and think about this entire situation. I actually thought about that a few times when things didn't pan out but didn't articulate it as well as you did. From what I remember, I was like "I have a good solid idea of who I am. I know where I'm headed in life and what I want to do and what I stand for, but I think the women thought otherwise of me, and that is the furthest thing from the truth.


    Hot damn, that's the spirit!


    Yeah, that. To me it seems you're trying too hard to meet people or control a situation that is naturally out of control.
    While it's true that outside forces and situations are out of my control, the only thing I have control over is myself. I had to accept that reality a while ago. That lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. Sure I can influence the world around me, but never control it.

    I still don't see how I'm trying to hard though? If that's the case that is...

    This is another thing I want to clear up: why are looks so important?
    Like I mentioned in other threads, I don't consider it to be more or less important than personality, values etc., but it is just as important to everything else. I want the whole package.

    I'm not going to go down that route of lying to myself by being someone I'm really not attracted to physically. Even if they are beautiful, but an airhead, ugh… no way, talking to them is like talking to a fish. I leave when I'm not interested and don't feel anything beyond the looks.

    I don't want to settle for a relationship, nor life, or anything. Fuck that, I think we all deserve the best in life.

    If you're curious why I write about it though, man, I'm just being a man and I'm amazed by beauty… in all of it's forms.

    Can't you see I'm a very visual person too? (in this forum)

    It depends who you are. I don't think there's a universal way for a man to play; I mean, if you've been "real" all these years, then maybe you should use a little ol' Si experience to realize it may not be the right approach for you.
    Si, that's sensing right?

    I'm so not in the moment, that I can admit. (check out my little cool stock market MBTI graph in the bottom). I'm too busy thinking about what lies ahead, fuck the Power of Now! … just kidding. As a side, note I'd say that was probably one of the simplest, yet most difficult-to-grasp books I've read. I still to this day don't get how you can "just" be in the moment. I've had my moments of being in the moment, but there is not even a switch for me to use if you know what I'm saying… I'm looking for it though.


    But what is being real? Does it involve spilling everything you're thinking at the current moment? To me you sound like you're an advocate of radical honesty. Take it easy. Trusting people with your exact thoughts in the moment takes more time than I think you're giving it. And- yeah- it may sound wrong and raise red flags in your head, but I think it's one of those things that we all have to just deal with.
    I see where you're going.

    Put it this way also, I had to make a big distinction between confession and honesty. It's not like I go over there and confess all of my sins, thoughts, actions, feeling credit cards, secrets etc. in a flash blunt fashion—I've done that by hitting an "extreme" before (the other extreme was being totally hidden)—the balance I have is by being honest and speaking my mind, if I choose to. If I don't, then I won't say anything at all.

    But yeah, I know it can take time, but hell, I've made friends in no time.


    And it is sad; but you can't let the fear of this happening make you too abrupt in the situation. I think when you make such brash attempts at making something happen you either appear desperate or inexperienced.
    Putting my ego aside, I'm definitely inexperienced on the relationship department. But I can see some truth in me coming across as desperate. In reality, I don't see myself that way, if I were, I'd be scaring people off he bat when I first meet them, but that doesn't happen—it has in the past when I was overcoming my fears and stuff though.

    It goes back to that, being misunderstood, or like you said having the "opposite" of being all good on the inside, but I give the impression that I'm not on the outside.

    Again, this depends on the man. Just because something worked for one person doesn't mean it will work 100% for you- I'd say about 80% of the time it does, but when you're focused on people, that chance lowers to around 3%.
    Yeah it does depend, but hearing different perspectives, from all the good and bad sides and statistics sure gives me a whole new individual custom-made perspective so to speak.

    Sorry- I speak in a language that isn't really English sometimes- maybe it's too much N- Intuinglish.

    Anyway, what I mean to say is that MBTI only categorizes into 16 types, and that even INFJs, being a rather low percent of the population, can be found in abundance in certain areas (this forum for example). There are a lot of people and so far only 16 types; someone's out there.
    No biggie.

    INFJ you say? I've seen more blue moons then them… seriously, that goes for ISFP's too. At this rate, I will see Halley's Comet, 65 solar eclipses, win the lottery, become president and still not run into an INFJ/ISFP in person!

    Then again, I just learned about and got into MBTI stuff barely this year, so I'm kinda new to it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member SerengetiBetty's Avatar
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    ok i haven't read all the responses thoroughly. i just wanted to comment on this
    Whenever I meet these women, I see this pattern where I meet them, call them up to chat, and that's all I'll get to. The first time I see them is basically the last time. Now I can objectively say that I don't know what it is, but to throw in my opinion or guess, is that I think they're playing head games. I had to swallow that real-world realization that people are going to be mean just as they are cool; the world isn't perfect, there are manipulators, gold diggers, liars, psychos etc. but I think that is turning my world of dating in to a cloudy day instead of a sunny day if you know what I'm saying. I'm thinking if they weren't truly interested they would have walked away when we first met, or simply declined.
    because i do this quite often. for me it's not about playing head games but about a guy GETTING and then KEEPING my attention.

    if you're meeting extroverted, attractive women then odds are she's meeting lots of men. trust me 95% of dudes *at least in my opinion* are extremely BORING. they talk about boring stuff, they suggest doing boring things, and they say the same things,do the same things, etc. If I'm not going to go out again with guy 1A who turns out to be like this,I for damn sure am not going out with guy 1Z that I meet.

    so from what you're reading it sounds like you got the getting the attention part but not really keeping the attention. what are you talking to these women about when you call them? Are you not being your playful yet mysterious ENTP self?



    also this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless View Post
    (Beware, this is long)
    I think you can see that I have a low-tolerance for bullshit, and especially fakeness. I value authenticity to the highest degree out there, but is it just me or them when it comes to growing relationships?
    huh? you're trying to determine someone's degree of authenticity or fakeness after only meeting them once? it sounds like you're more focused on the vision of whatever constitutes a relationship in your mind and just looking for a woman to drop into place. this isn't really how it works. just because a girl agrees to go out on date 1 with you doesn't automatically mean there will be a date 5

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