[NT] Ts: Why don't feelings matter?

[Jaguar]

There's nothing wrong with a little induction.

Bullshit.

 

[BlackCat]

Wait for it... wait for it... someone's gonna take the bait!

 

[nocebo]

Feelings matter... they're a part of every living human being.
I think it is very important to understand feelings, both your own and those of others, if you desire to function in this world.

 

[forzen]

Feeling does matter, but i get a logic error whenever i try to run it :steam:.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

You mean there must be good reasoning behind the feelings before they're worthy of consideration?

Yes! This is it exactly.

EDIT: before they are worthy of expressing.

 

[sofmarhof]

They do.
Mine matter more than most people's.

 

[Tamske]

Feelings do matter! Only...

1) I feel (yes, feel) my feelings aren't important enough to annoy other people with them. I won't pour out my heart to you, because when I feel bad that's my problem and not yours. Unless I know you very well and want your help with analyzing my feelings. You'll be welcome if you want my help. That way, the bad feelings will get out of the way and won't annoy more people.
Good feelings, on the other hand, will be expressed easily!

2) Clear communication is worth millions more than tact. Even to the point of rudeness. I can't understand hinting myself. I'm not going to try and search meaning behind your actions. If you're mad at me, just say so and say why, such that I can make amends. I will do the same to you.

 

[sofmarhof]

think my Dad is a T (ISTJ I think) he is inappropriate and offensive all the time but when he should be offensive (when being pestered by telemarketers etc.) all of a sudden he is Mr Politeness, what's the deal with that?

Oh my god. You just described my roommate.
Today she was claiming it is rude to not give someone your number when you don't want to go out with them.

 

[simulatedworld]

My feelings matter to me; I just don't expect them to lay claim to the rest of the world.

+1

Thinkers have feelings too; we're just much more reasonable about putting them in context and not selfishly expecting the entire world to bend to our will just because we feel a certain way.

I may feel that a given behavior is morally wrong, but I have enough Thinking capacity to recognize that I have no basis on which to expect everyone else to agree with or follow my personal feelings.

There's nothing wrong with a little induction.

Bullshit.

Epic Ne fail. I think I understand now: Te is incapable of inductive reasoning. Wow. That explains an awful lot.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I have feelings, but I don't think that something is ____ just because I feel that way about it. Cognitive associations are formed throughout a person's life that don't reflect the full picture of reality.

I don't discount my feelings, but I usually don't think they're enough to justify any major decision.

When I'm buying music or deciding what to have for dinner, I don't use much thinking (unless I'm considering the price or cholesterol content).

 

[Totenkindly]

You mean there must be good reasoning behind the feelings before they're worthy of consideration?

It depends on the person and the specific type (Ti vs Te is different), as well as age / maturity level / life experience / whatever else, and the feelings being examined.

I think my Dad is a T (ISTJ I think) he is inappropriate and offensive all the time but when he should be offensive (when being pestered by telemarketers etc.) all of a sudden he is Mr Politeness, what's the deal with that?

ISTJs act appropriately within the given social constraints.

You're a bit vague on what situations your dad is inappropriate/offensive in, but in regards to telemarketers, the social situation is, well, social, with strangers, and hence he takes on an appropriate stance and a more formal one... if he's ISTJ.

I don't discount my feelings, but I usually don't think they're enough to justify any major decision.

T's naturally detach from feelings when they evaluate a situation in order to pass a judgment. They see feelings as "white noise." More mature T's will use them as signals to describe, well, personal values, and if they believe the situation calls for those personal values to be included in the decision, then they will... but the decision is generally a conscious one and chosen. (For example, getting mad at something someone did is evaluated, the anger is seen as a logical consequence of being violated, and so the T might rationally decide to not invest any more in a particular relationship because they were violated... but it's a rational thinking process being used to reach the conclusion.)

F's are far more likely to include feelings in a decision, to whatever degree those personal feelings align with personal values and the values are far more instinctive instead of rationalized.

 

[theadoor]

Feelings do matter! Only...

1) I feel (yes, feel) my feelings aren't important enough to annoy other people with them. I won't pour out my heart to you, because when I feel bad that's my problem and not yours. Unless I know you very well and want your help with analyzing my feelings. You'll be welcome if you want my help. That way, the bad feelings will get out of the way and won't annoy more people.
Good feelings, on the other hand, will be expressed easily!

I totally agree with every word you wrote here!

 

[simulatedworld]

It depends on the person and the specific type (Ti vs Te is different), as well as age / maturity level / life experience / whatever else, and the feelings being examined.



ISTJs act appropriately within the given social constraints.

You're a bit vague on what situations your dad is inappropriate/offensive in, but in regards to telemarketers, the social situation is, well, social, with strangers, and hence he takes on an appropriate stance and a more formal one... if he's ISTJ.



T's naturally detach from feelings when they evaluate a situation in order to pass a judgment. They see feelings as "white noise." More mature T's will use them as signals to describe, well, personal values, and if they believe the situation calls for those personal values to be included in the decision, then they will... but the decision is generally a conscious one and chosen. (For example, getting mad at something someone did is evaluated, the anger is seen as a logical consequence of being violated, and so the T might rationally decide to not invest any more in a particular relationship because they were violated... but it's a rational thinking process being used to reach the conclusion.)

F's are far more likely to include feelings in a decision, to whatever degree those personal feelings align with personal values and the values are far more instinctive instead of rationalized.

Very well said.

 

[Thalassa]

+1

Thinkers have feelings too; we're just much more reasonable about putting them in context and not selfishly expecting the entire world to bend to our will just because we feel a certain way.

.

Thinkers are definitely more reasonable when it comes to their feelings, but are they really less selfish? Hmm. I'm not so sure of that. Maybe it's just that Thinkers and Feelers are selfish in different ways, for different reasons.

Like, a Thinker might be selfish because they have deduced that it is the rational thing to do. Take Ayn Rand for example. Okay, finished laughing yet? But seriously...

 

[simulatedworld]

Thinkers are definitely more reasonable when it comes to their feelings, but are they really less selfish? Hmm. I'm not so sure of that. Maybe it's just that Thinkers and Feelers are selfish in different ways, for different reasons.

Like, a Thinker might be selfish because they have deduced that it is the rational thing to do. Take Ayn Rand for example. Okay, finished laughing yet? But seriously...

Thinkers are selfish when it comes to violations of their logical principles, but that's not quite the same thing.

 

[Thalassa]

Thinkers are selfish when it comes to violations of their logical principles, but that's not quite the same thing.

Sure it is. Thinkers can be very selfish, rude, inconsiderate...that's selfish, dude.

People are selfish. It's our nature.

Next.

 

[simulatedworld]

Sure it is. Thinkers can be very selfish, rude, inconsiderate...that's selfish, dude.

People are selfish. It's our nature.

Next.

We're discussing the reasons for it, not the behavior itself. Nobody ever said Thinkers as a whole are less selfish than Feelers, just that Thinkers are less selfish on an emotional basis.

 

[Amargith]

Well it's a double-edged blade, isn't it?

In order to use F properly, to allow feelings to matter in a decision in a non-selfish mature way, one has to work to a whole hell of a lot of ***, before you can get it right. Emotions are just not that easy to channel. It takes practice.

So...to detach from those emotions can give you a shortcut, in order to decide without that 'white noise' clouding your judgement. Very practical, and convenient. However, when you use this method you will also not get the benefit of practice. Which means that the times that you are in fact so swamped by white noise that it cannot be surpressed..you're going to drown, much like an immature F would, and be potentially selfish. Worse still, you'll convince yourself that you're fine and in control, as you're not aware that the white noise is seeping through and influencing you.

 

[Tamske]

It seems you can be selfish either way.

The Feeler way: lay an emotional load on everyone because you're so thin-skinned and need praise and attention, place your feelings before everything and everyone else.

The Thinker way: bulldozer your way through people to accomplish your goals, being inconsiderate, see yourself as the only realist/rational around.

 

[Grungemouse]

hmmmm.... I'd rather eat a large live snake than talk about my feelings...

While mulling this over in my head, my first thought was, "What kind of snake are we talking about? If it's a member of the viper family, then yes, because their venom is cytotoxic and if ingested would be broken into amino acids by the protease in the stomach. Which is kind of beneficial, actually, because I haven't been getting enough protein lately... If it's an elapid, then hell to the no. And would I eat it head first or start at the tail? Probably the tail, because it would be dead by the time I reached the fangs..." Meh.

My opinions pretty much echo a lot of what has already been said, in that I do value my feelings, but in the grand scheme of myself vs the group, I nearly always prioritize the values of the majority. It saves a lot of time and fuss, and for some reason I just hate being the spanner in the wheel of progress over my own petty problems. I don't dwell on my personal values being squished, because I have a natural tendency to take on board other peoples values; the groups values become my own. Ultimately, if progress isn't delayed, then that is what matters.