[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[substitute]

Again, should I be questioning my humanity? (or Fness)

No, that's just what my INFP friend does as well - she does it to me sometimes! lol I think with her it's part of a general tendency towards passiveness, but she pulls it off in a good way.

they're all actually a bit scared of me I was voted the biggest Baddass Motherfucker a few semesters in a row! (should this be of any use?)

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Why didn't you mention that before!?

Hang on, how come it's ended up us three again?

We've really got to hit a bar or something...

 

[runvardh]

No, that's just what my INFP friend does as well - she does it to me sometimes! lol I think with her it's part of a general tendency towards passiveness, but she pulls it off in a good way.

ah, good

Hang on, how come it's ended up us three again?

We've really got to hit a bar or something...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no kidding, other than the fact that I know I'm just bored at work right now.

 

[miss fortune]

yeah- bored waiting for friends to come over for dinner!

 

[substitute]

runvardh, you're not in Calgary are you? I've a good friend in Calgary - I say she's INFJ, but... oh, no, hold on, you're a guy, right?

I'm not bored! Ha, am I the only one who doesn't use this forum as a replacement/second choice type thing? Whenever I'm on here, about 70% of the time I've got friends nearby, in the same room or building and we're all sorta reading off the screen and discussing what people are saying. People come over and we get chatting and someone will say before I mention it, 'let's see what the forum people are on about today', and we check it out together.

The comments I write are all mine though. Like I've said before, nobody else takes credit for my screwups!!

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm in an organization which has an abnormally high percentage of ENTJs, which is vaguely scary! This usually isn't a problem, but some of them have recently stepped over the line on an issue, and I, as the wise old bourbon drinking grandma on the porch of the organization, am expected to set them straight. Not cool.

How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people especially ENTJs.

Please help?

Just hold your ground and stick to making a point. You'd outdo them on logic because Ti gives you a stronger thinking faculty. Then their Te gives them. I've overpowered an ENTJ like this once. After this he wasnt willing to argue with me anymore because he could not help but argue strictly for the sake of winning the argument. After he began doubting his ability to do this, he rescinded.

You can take him head on, watch him lose confidence as you get further into in depth analysis. ENTJs thrive on external, social-aspects of T work.

Keep in mind, the ENTJ will get frustrated after he sees you uninfluenced by his repetitive attempts to accept his point of view, or unmoved emotionally. These two traits are quite common in ITPs, and for this reason ENTJs, after much experience with this type tend to doubt their ability to debate with them on a level of desired competence. They often argue to convince or inspire, ITPs are not easily deterred because of their radical thinking preferrence which surpasses even that of the ENTJs.

Keep in mind that ITPs have an edge in real of pure reason as their thoughts run deeper(Ti), and bend more easily (depend less on external factors), than that of the ENTJ. As aforementioned, the ENTJ will only feel more confident in the beginning, as soon as you push the discussion into more rigorous analysis they will feel ill-equipped.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm occasionally online while hanging out with friends and watching tv- but only if it's with a larger group so that they can keep each other amused more easily while I'm not paying 100% attention to them!

 

[substitute]

I'm occasionally online while hanging out with friends and watching tv- but only if it's with a larger group so that they can keep each other amused more easily while I'm not paying 100% attention to them!

Oh right yeah, that's it though, with my lot, we all get involved together. Like a hive mind... heh

There's nobody here right now, but earlier my ISTP, INFP and and ENTJ were here. They left about half an hour ago, it's 23h 15 here in sunny Europe. They've gone out to the clubs, but I'm staying in cos of the kids (and not really feeling like it anyway)

 

[miss fortune]

ah- not even 7 pm here! my evening hasn't started!!!

and thank you Bluewing!!!

 

[substitute]

You can take him head on, watch him lose confidence as you get further into in depth analysis.

Whilst I'll agree that this can be done, I wouldn't advise it where losing the goodwill of the ENTJ can have consequences, especially on others. My experience is that they might hold a grudge... but if they do, it won't be because you beat them - they'll respect you for that - the grudge will be because you humiliated them in front of others. Like I said, pride is a big thing... and an ENTJ with a grudge can REALLY get in the way of pretty much anything you want to do. Easier to do than undo, so best avoided.

 

[runvardh]

runvardh, you're not in Calgary are you? I've a good friend in Calgary - I say she's INFJ, but... oh, no, hold on, you're a guy, right?

Yup, male in Calgary; that's too bad, I could use meeting someone who is single and local for once ><

I'm not bored! Ha, am I the only one who doesn't use this forum as a replacement/second choice type thing? Whenever I'm on here, about 70% of the time I've got friends nearby, in the same room or building and we're all sorta reading off the screen and discussing what people are saying. People come over and we get chatting and someone will say before I mention it, 'let's see what the forum people are on about today', and we check it out together.

The comments I write are all mine though. Like I've said before, nobody else takes credit for my screwups!!

Yeah, I don't have friends who are into this stuff and I get long lulls between calls here.

 

[substitute]

Yup, male in Calgary; that's too bad, I could use meeting someone who is single and local for once ><

Ha, she's 43 and married with 4 kids, so...

Yeah, I don't have friends who are into this stuff and I get long lulls between calls here.

The price of introversion my friend

 

[runvardh]

Ha, she's 43 and married with 4 kids, so...

That's about typical of my luck, actually.

The price of introversion my friend

Na, it's the price of having boring friends

 

[substitute]

Na, it's the price of having boring friends

Well, I may be a pain in the ass, but one thing nobody can say of me is that I'm boring!

Anyway it's off to bed for me - those kids will pounce on me at 7am guaranteed!! Carry on without me

 

[Maverick]

Just hold your ground and stick to making a point. You'd outdo them on logic because Ti gives you a stronger thinking faculty. Then their Te gives them. I've overpowered an ENTJ like this once. After this he wasnt willing to argue with me anymore because he could not help but argue strictly for the sake of winning the argument. After he began doubting his ability to do this, he rescinded.

You can take him head on, watch him lose confidence as you get further into in depth analysis. ENTJs thrive on external, social-aspects of T work.

Keep in mind, the ENTJ will get frustrated after he sees you uninfluenced by his repetitive attempts to accept his point of view, or unmoved emotionally. These two traits are quite common in ITPs, and for this reason ENTJs, after much experience with this type tend to doubt their ability to debate with them on a level of desired competence. They often argue to convince or inspire, ITPs are not easily deterred because of their radical thinking preferrence which surpasses even that of the ENTJs.

Keep in mind that ITPs have an edge in real of pure reason as their thoughts run deeper(Ti), and bend more easily (depend less on external factors), than that of the ENTJ. As aforementioned, the ENTJ will only feel more confident in the beginning, as soon as you push the discussion into more rigorous analysis they will feel ill-equipped.

I don't agree. The most important aspect is that ENTJ's will argue based on empirical evidence and practical applications. They are likely to be convinced more by facts than anything. As a Ti dominant you will gain points by using this.

I don't think Ti has an edge over Te, or that the ti form of thinking is deeper and has and edge. Te and Ti are both necessary in science and philosophy and I think none have an absolute advantage over the other.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I don't agree. The most important aspect is that ENTJ's will argue based on empirical evidence and practical applications. They are likely to be convinced more by facts than anything. As a Ti dominant you will gain points by using this.

I don't think Ti has an edge over Te. Both are necessary in science and philosophy and I think none have an absolute advantage over the other.

What I meant by the claim that Ti has an edge over Te is that it is more germane to the quintissence of 'Thinking'. Or in colloquial terms, it is more T than Te.

Jung inherited the notion from Schopenhauer that the essence of mind is unconscious. There is no distinction between the conscious and the unconscious--all of mind is unconscious, conscious is only an external manifestation of the unconscious.

Jung also argued that Introverts are closer in tune with their unconscious. All functions stem from the mind. We equate the mind with the unconscious. Thus the closer a function is to the mind/unconscious, the stronger it is.

Te and Ti derive from the same quintissence--Thinking. Introverted Thinking is more of a 'Thinking' function, because it is closer to the unconscious element of 'Thinking'.

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You seem to be saying that by external standards, it is hard to tell which is superior. As we see Te tends to be more successful in science, and Ti in philosophy. Both tend to be successful in intellectual endeavors, and it is hard to tell which one has an edge. That is a claim that I do not attempt to refute.

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My point is, as aforementioned, is that ITPs have a stronger 'T'.

We tend to associate tough-mindedness and forcefulness of opinion with a highly developed Thinking faculty. Because ITPs are more 'T' than ETJs, their mindset tends to be tougher, and therefore more likely to emerge victorious in the head-on clash.

Thus, whilst an ENTJ may express more confidence in himself being logical, the ITP will actually be the one more confident of the two because his thinking preferrence is stronger. My point was that the ITP need not be intimidated by ENTJ's confidence in his reasoning, as he actually has more of this element himself.

 

[Nocapszy]

What I meant by the claim that Ti has an edge over Te is that it is more germane to the quintissence of 'Thinking'. Or in colloquial terms, it is more T than Te.

Jung inherited the notion from Schopenhauer that the essence of mind is unconscious. There is no distinction between the conscious and the unconscious--all of mind is unconscious, conscious is only an external manifestation of the unconscious.

Jung also argued that Introverts are closer in tune with their unconscious. All functions stem from the mind. We equate the mind with the unconscious. Thus the closer a function is to the mind/unconscious, the stronger it is.

Te and Ti derive from the same quintissence--Thinking. Introverted Thinking is more of a 'Thinking' function, because it is closer to the unconscious element of 'Thinking'.

---------------------------------------------------------------

You seem to be saying that by external standards, it is hard to tell which is superior. As we see Te tends to be more successful in science, and Ti in philosophy. Both tend to be successful in intellectual endeavors, and it is hard to tell which one has an edge. That is a claim that I do not attempt to refute.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point is, as aforementioned, is that ITPs have a stronger 'T'.

We tend to associate tough-mindedness and forcefulness of opinion with a highly developed Thinking faculty. Because ITPs are more 'T' than ETJs, their mindset tends to be tougher, and therefore more likely to emerge victorious in the head-on clash.

Thus, whilst an ENTJ may express more confidence in himself being logical, the ITP will actually be the one more confident of the two because his thinking preferrence is stronger. My point was that the ITP need not be intimidated by ENTJ's confidence in his reasoning, as he actually has more of this element himself.

Just like ENTJs have stronger N.

 

[LadyJaye]

Assuming they really are ENTJ, it's really not that difficult. Remain as calm as possible and argue logically with an emphasis on practical applications. Show that you are objective and have a measured viewpoint. Use facts and data to prove your points. Above all, do not get emotional or attack them personally or you will lost their respect and your credibility in their eyes.

Point me toward danger - I'm ready!


I think this is a very accurate statement - I employ this when dealing with my best friend. It keeps communication clear and uncluttered, as she tends to get impatient with redundancy and "emotional" value judgments.

With that said, personality type or no, trying to have someone expelled because they don't agree with someone else's stance is unacceptable behaviour. It's arrogant and tyrannical.

 

[Bushranger]

Whilst I'll agree that this can be done, I wouldn't advise it where losing the goodwill of the ENTJ can have consequences, especially on others. My experience is that they might hold a grudge... but if they do, it won't be because you beat them - they'll respect you for that - the grudge will be because you humiliated them in front of others. Like I said, pride is a big thing... and an ENTJ with a grudge can REALLY get in the way of pretty much anything you want to do. Easier to do than undo, so best avoided.

Not as big an issue if you can humiliate them all simultaneously. It can have the advantage of weakening the clique and increasing your influence simultaneously.

Unfortunately I can't claim to have argued with ENTJs in groups before.

 

[miss fortune]

the secrets would completely rip them apart.....

 

[FDG]

This is what is funny to me. I had a fallout with an ENTJ because she refused to acknowledge that someone else (me) could have a different view of reality that was equally valid. In other words, I felt I was open to her views, but she was not open to mine in the slightest, and there was no room in her little worldview for my perspective.

Well, we generally don't care about imposing our views. So if I say that for me your world-view is not coherent, it doesn't mean you can't keep on using it, just that my personal opinion is that is not coherent. Let's put it this way: there are certain events, and uncertain events. The former set does not entail the possibility of two mutually exclusive events being true, so yes it's very black and white.

Keep in mind, the ENTJ will get frustrated after he sees you uninfluenced by his repetitive attempts to accept his point of view, or unmoved emotionally. These two traits are quite common in ITPs, and for this reason ENTJs, after much experience with this type tend to doubt their ability to debate with them on a level of desired competence. They often argue to convince or inspire, ITPs are not easily deterred because of their radical thinking preferrence which surpasses even that of the ENTJs.

Man, I think you haven't understood your thought process. When the debate lasts for too long, we start thinking "why am I here doing this stuff, when I could occupy my time with more fun activities"? In any case IRL I've always welcomed arguing with ITPs because I know that their feedback is always unbiased.