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  1. #81
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    so now you make it sound like I'm not awesome and special?

  2. #82
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so now you make it sound like I'm not awesome and special?
    I don't know if BlueWing is going to respond so here's

    Oooh, so now I'm curious.

    How'd you do it??

  3. #83
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I quit- which pissed off the powers that be (Nationals) who rained fire and brimstone down on the evil ENTJs! (figuratively of course!)

    They also felt really bad after that, so I guess somewhere deep down in there ENTJs do have hearts!

  4. #84
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Oh mang, isn't that kind of 'hand of god' intervention the BEST! Did the ENTJ's squirm? Were they publicly castigated? Am I immature for getting immense gleeful pleasure in the public humilation of my enemies? I smile like this IRL when this happens --> But only on the inside. Because I am a L-A-D-Y. Hahahaha.

    Are all your fences mended? And is the ENFP still going to quit?

  5. #85
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    the enfp is in- I'm out (I had to quit to get someone from nationals to listen)- and the national board is making the fraternity quit some of the sadistic hazing methods that they were using and closing down the room where they all hang out on campus and gossip, so I guess that some good came out of that!

    They were apparently squirming VERY uncomfortably because one of the high national officers showed up to enforce civility! (vengance can be awesome!)

  6. #86
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    The problem with ENTJ's is that they try to run a plan, organization or strategy, and they have probably mobilized all forces for their cause. They have probably gathered a herd of people that obey them, and they can argument by the force of their followers. So with an organizational issue, I would base my argument on the basis of practicalities that I could do. I would have to use the values/practicalities/persons of the organization/strategy against itself, and to make the ENTJ see that it is incoherent/inefficient/incapable in a way that I could exploit it/improve it.

    Even ENTJ logical structures are more like organizations than pure thought, so I would make a similar kind of approach.

  7. #87
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    The problem with ENTJ's is that they try to run a plan, organization or strategy, and they have probably mobilized all forces for their cause. They have probably gathered a herd of people that obey them, and they can argument by the force of their followers. So with an organizational issue, I would base my argument on the basis of practicalities that I could do. I would have to use the values/practicalities/persons of the organization/strategy against itself, and to make the ENTJ see that it is incoherent/inefficient/incapable in a way that I could exploit it/improve it.

    Even ENTJ logical structures are more like organizations than pure thought, so I would make a similar kind of approach.
    Incomprehensible gibberish.

  8. #88
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Incomprehensible gibberish.
    You sort it out, tiger

  9. #89
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes, ENTJs, as all TJs tend to, have a compulsive advice giving syndrome.

    Thus, when they bark orders at you, they think they are rendering you a service.

    On practical basis, I would agree with you, you'd be giving them your views because you think this may help them. However, now I am thinking about ENTJs who argue about complex ideas. In history of philosophy, NTJs were notorious for forcing their views on others. They did not regret being a bit myopic until they went back to introspect, only there the Introverted Intuition suggested to them that they should be a bit more charitable to the views of others. But as far as Te is concerned--what we have is a standard that is ostensible to ALL. Whoever, meets the standard is right, whoever does not, is wrong. The ENTJ takes it upon himself to move those who are in the 'wrong' towards the 'right'. For this reason we can also draw a parallel to ENFJs in comparison to INFPs. INFPs do not believe in forcing values on their children, as they make values for their own sake, for the sake of their inner world. Yet ENFJs tend to believe in very gently persuading their children to embrace their beliefs.

    This isnt a remark about any ENTJ person(s), but rather a remark about how the unconscious faculty of Extroverted thinking tends to function. Moreover, this is not specific to ENTJs, but rather to the property of Extroverted Judgments (TJ/FJ), which is prominent, however, in ENTJs. As their first function is a TJ (Te).
    If you meant intellectually and in the realm of ideas, then I agree with you.

    I am not thinking about ENTJs on practical basis, but ENTJs who discuss complex ideas. There they will pursue the task tenaciously until their 'opponent' agrees with them, or they are proved 'wrong' in a very ostensible fashion. Last time I argued with the ENTJ in person that I've cited earlier, I had to perform reductio ad absurdum on many of his salient clauses.
    What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality.

    However, it is clear that EJs need an established hierarchy in order to cooperate, as otherwise they just would not know what role to hop into. The most adept leader will take it upon himself to establish hierarchy, that is likely going to be an ENTJ. I think there highly likely will be a power struggle if the two ENTJs who initially wanted to cooperate to get a task done, cannot decide which one of them is to establish the hierarchy. Moreover, the ENTJ who rescinds will resent the ENTJ leader and unless he is rendered 2nd in command, he likely will feel enough resentment to become resolute to subvert the primary guy. Not that he woud be content with being just 2nd in command, but there he may just be able to put up with it for long enough to get the project out of the way, next time he'd direct all of his energy to the one end and goal to becoming the 'primary guy', especially if that other ENTJ is also going to be involved again.
    We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    If you meant intellectually and in the realm of ideas, then I agree with you.



    What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality.
    Agreed, I have also noted these characteristics in ENTJs. I think there is an overlapping of certain values, when someone acts out of insubordination. Since ENTJs regard loyalty as very important, when someone attempting to (perhaps inadvertently) damage the overall goals of the organization, then I can see the ENTJ cutting that individual out without a second glance.

    In the way that this also personal relationships, I think this is the reason why ENTJs have no problem leaving a troubled relationship.

    We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.
    Yes, which is why ENTJs make great leaders- because they are not competitive with their staff. There is no need to think in the ENTJ's mindset that he/she is the best at absolutely everything- and since ENTJs can easily recognize a person's skillsets from the onset, it's easier to integrate them rather than attempt subterfuge. The only conflict I can see is if two ENTJs are sexually attracted to each other, and attempt to compete by trying to impress/outdo the other, but usually those are probably more the playful sort, not fight to the death type interaction.

    Just my observations here!

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